On 05/10/2022 20:28, Hans de Goede wrote:
Hi,
On 10/5/22 19:59, Christopher Klooz wrote:
On 05/10/2022 18:39, Christopher Klooz wrote:
On 05/10/2022 17:33, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Wed, Oct 5, 2022, at 11:16 AM, Christopher Klooz wrote:
However, on ask.fp, a user mentioned that the grub menu is no longer
enabled by default on single boot systems so that changing the kernel is
no longer easily possible, and put forward
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/HiddenGrubMenu as evidence for
this argument. Yet, the article indicates that the argument is not fully
correct and even with single boot installations, SHIFT can be used to
get into the grub menu.
I think it's F8 or SHIFT. F8 doesn't work on many laptops I've found, because it's reserved by UEFI firmware for one of its menus. And SHIFT has never worked. Maybe Esc or TAB?
Holding left shift is the easiest method, but with firmware being
firmware does not work on all systems.
What does always work is ESC or F8, Fedora's grub supports both to
show the menu. On some systems one of those key get intercepted by
the firmware which is why there are 2 choices.
Given this inconsistency, I have a mixed opinion of the hidden GRUB menu.
Me, too. Especially as it makes support more problematic for unexperiened users. It is easy to say that people should push another kernel when they see the grub menu. They see text, and I can tell them which text to choose. But with unexperiened users, telling when to push tab/esc/shift/F8 can already need to start an elaboration of what "boot" means and when this happens and so on. Such elaborations are already annoying for them (and for the supporters).
The menu automatically unhides after a failed boot. Just blindly
doing ctrl + alt + f4 followed by ctrl + alt + delete; or just
power-cycling the machine counts as a failed boot.
Many problems that can occur do not cause a failed boot. This starts
with the current issue in 5.19.12. Another widespread issue is that
users have problems with a piece of hardware (e.g., bluetooth
controller), or with modules causing unintended behavior with one kernel
(freeze, slow, something like wifi or bluetooth does not work, other
acpi issues, and so on). All that does not necessarily cause failed
boots, but is widespread among our "user base" at ask.fp especially
because Fedora is used on much different hardware, and some needs
additionally external modules.
We have spend a lot of time on creating a smooth boot experience
without any menus filled with "techno babble" which scare
novice users. Lets avoid regressing on this.
I am not sure if the outcome is even more scary for users, especially
unexperienced users. Finding out which key to use seems to be not smooth
even for experienced people in the devel mailing list. Also, I am not
sure if this perception of unexperienced users who want to get rid of
"seeing any type of text" reflects our less-techy user base. My
perception at ask.fp or from conferences is different. But I already
elaborated that in my previous mails.
If anything what we need is to:
1. Detect we are running not the latest kernel
2. Pop up a dialog that 1. is true and ask the user if there
were issues with the latest kernel and if yes if they want
to pin the currently running kernel for say the next month ?
Regards,
Hans
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