On 5/18/22 13:02, Fabio Valentini wrote:
On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 12:28 PM jiri vanek <jvanek@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Once, long ago, we were the leader in the Linux Java ecosystem, but
ironically as Red Hat's influence in OpenJDK grew, investment in
Fedora dwindled.
That really is not true. But maybe we were doing to much to keep any java somehow alive. This proposal will untie our hands, and we wil be able to focus to toher things - exactl those which you propose.
My experience with trying to keep Java packages in Fedora alive does
not allow me to agree with you.
I tried to keep Java ecosystem from disintegrating *twice* and both
times I was discouraged by Red Hat employees.
Can you elaborate more please?
I guess one of this interactions was me. Which makes me double courious what caused you this experience.
We've also lost most of our Java based apps to even test OpenJDK with.
What the heck are we supposed to do to test and give karma? We lost
Eclipse last year, and we lost IntellJ and NetBeans several years ago.
Azureus was removed a year ago, too. The larger Java community stopped
encouraging the development of desktop apps more than seven years ago,
Excelent point - the reason why they quit, is that it is impossible to maintain compelte dependency chain, and having downloadable blob is so much easier for the maintenance.
And JDK world is moving into this direction. If we will not be allowed to do so, JDK can leave fedora at all.
That's not a valid argument, though, is it?
If you have the choice between doing something that is 1) hard or 2)
forbidden, then you don't really have a choice, do you?
That is correct.
But afaik there are three
1) hard 2) a bit easier 3) forbidden
As fedora ahve bundling already allwod, the 2 is choice if 1 was attempted and proved to cost really a lot.
Redistributing binary blobs or pre-compiled JAR files is not something
we can do with Fedora RPM packages.
As writtten several times - this si not true. It will eb always source codebuilt in koji.
Of course it would be much simpler if we could just take JAR files
from Maven Central and wrap them in an RPM, but that is forbidden in
Fedora for good reason.
Here I agree. if fedora move to prepacked blobs, then all freedome of source is gone. No way. If I ever suggest that, I will give you happily my address so you can take proper steps to stop it;)
And that does not even account for the packages in Fedora that contain
some amount of Java support code or tools that happen to be written in
Java, and so rely on at least some parts of the Java ecosystem (javac,
maybe maven or ant) to be available as RPMs during package builds.
But that is again not going to change. I fail to understand your point here. Nor did I got why my argument is not valid.
Maybe you misunderstood "having downloadable blob is so much easier for the maintenance"
I ment downloadable from internet, not as rpms. Some simple mvn assembly:assembly which will do all the build work on developer's local machine, and then mvn release:release which will publish on project's web page and maintianer is done.
On contrary, with more then 10 dependencies (unpacked for distro) it is already quite a fight to put it in. And if dependency (version) hell strikes, the apckager is lsot, where upstream maintainer and publisher is not.
Fabio
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--
Jiri Vanek Mgr.
Principal QA Software Engineer
Red Hat Inc.
+420 775 39 01 09
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