Re: What are the benefits of default modular streams over non-modular packages?

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On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 4:57 PM Miro Hrončok <mhroncok@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Hello, in this thread (Fedora 32 System-Wide Change proposal: Modules in
> Non-Modular Buildroot)
>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/message/JNTMUOBZHHCEOV7KS7MRNOBO6VGGT7RX/
>
> I've asked whether it wouldn't be in fact much easier to keep the default
> versions of our packages non-modular.
>
> Others have said they are interested in this as well. A huge thread happened but
> it hasn't delivered an answer.
> Arguments were made that default modular streams are planned to deliver the
> exact same experience as non-modular packages, yet it was not said if it
> wouldn't be easier to just deliver non-modular packages for default versions.
>
> Maybe it would be helpful to try to reformulate the question:
>
>
> **What are the benefits of default modular streams over non-modular packages?**
>
>
> I'll admit that I personally don't see any benefits, but of course that doesn't
> mean that they don't exist or that it's not worth having this discussion.

(snip)

> Considering we have 6 default modular streams,

Just to make this explicit for the people who don't know how to
determine this themselves (which includes me):
Which six modules do provide a default stream? I can't seem to tell by
looking at any modules' yaml files.

I hope this counts as a clarifying question, and not as a negative
"this is difficult to figure out" criticism ;)

Fabio

> let me acknowledge that for the
> maintainers who decided to deliver default modular streams instead of
> non-modular packages, there clearly are some benefits.
> While some of us might not understand them, let's not say there are none. But
> even if there are clear benefits for the maintainers of those modules, I'm
> asking about the benefits for everybody else.
>
> I'm mainly interested in benefits for:
>   - Fedora users
>   - Fedora non-modular packagers
>   - Fedora QA
>   - Fedora Release Engineering
>   - Community Platform Engineering Team
>   - Fedora downstream
>
> To get the most out of this discussion I think it's useful to set a few rules,
> similarly to the official modularity complaint thread:
>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/thread/CAT3WZ5OJ2N3TPKRHZA3N3PVNSOYX32I/
>
> So let's set some rules:
>
> 1. Always assume good faith. If you are not sure, ask clarifying questions.
>
> 2. No complaints. This thread is about benefits. Use the complaint thread for
> complaints.
>
> 3. Any vague speculative benefits will be ignored. "I think that having default
> modular streams sends a better message about how we are a progressive
> distribution" is an example of a speculative statement. Always be try to be
> concrete about who benefits, how and by what means.
>
> 4. Any argument based on the already spent money/time/energy to deliver default
> modular streams is to be ignored. It's a classic example of a sunk cost fallacy.
> "I think we need default modular streams because people have been working really
> hard to make them happen" is an example of such argument.
>
> --
> Miro Hrončok
> --
> Phone: +420777974800
> IRC: mhroncok
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