-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/04/2013 05:32 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Stephen Gallagher wrote: >> That's really not true any more in a world built on top of Ruby, >> Django, Node.js... >> >> In most cases, the people using these technologies don't use the >> distribution packages at all. They instead use >> 'rubgyem-install', 'easy_install/pip' and 'npm install'. The only >> thing they care about from the distro (sometimes!) is having >> those tools present. > > If for you "end user" means "web developer"… tl;dr: Heavily-qualified "yes". Well, that's circling back a bit to what we've stated we want from the Fedora Workstation. (Note: I'm not on that WG). We called it "Workstation" and not "Desktop" for a reason. When I first proposed the three products, I wanted us to focus on the things that Fedora has an opportunity to be great at. We have some excellent desktop environments (and if you're curious, I've spent time running most of them; I currently run a heavily-extended GNOME, but I was using KDE 4 for about a year prior to that), but while we're having flame-wars over which one is better for which reason, we have a tendency to lose sight of why they exist at all. The desktop environment is (to me) an extension of the concept of the operating system. It should facilitate the work you want to get done (whether that's actual work or putzing around on Youtube) and not get in the way of that. For most users, all they really want out of their desktop is the ability to run their desktop and web applications. Now, the question we have to face is this (in my opinion): What set of users are we as the Fedora Workstation going to go after? What group can we define that is likely to use Fedora and ultimately be interested in contributing to it, either directly (traditional contributor) or by building applications and tools atop it. I'd argue that the "general home user" ship has sailed. Most home users are happy with their Windows, OSX, iOS or Android devices. That last has even scooped up a sizeable chunk of the tinkerers and open-source advocate folks. Targeting this group *right now* is not an effective use of our time and effort. The desktop environment that people get pre-installed on their Best Buy laptop is "good enough" for that group of people. So let's take a look at who are the users that might be in our reach. In my mind, there are two groups (with differing needs, of course) that we have the best chance of reaching. The first are the traditional Fedora contributors; the people who are working on delivering Fedora itself. I think it stands to reason that our Workstation offering should directly benefit their ability to continue developing Fedora (all of its products, base design and the ecosystem). This is a place where we do a pretty good job now, at least in part because it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The second group that we have an opportunity to capture are the people who are doing the really "edgy" development today. These are the folks that are using the toolchains we don't love because they don't fit into our current model of how the world works. These people are working primarily in web application development because it's the easiest way for them to target the largest number of users. They don't have to care if their users are running Windows, iOS or BeOS as long as the user has a reasonably-compliant browser. This is a group of developers that right now are developing in one of two ways: They're developing on Ubuntu to deploy on Ubuntu or they're developing on OSX to deploy on Ubuntu. I'm trying in the Server WG to drive an answer to that deployment problem (as is Matthew in the Cloud WG). What I'd like to see from the Workstation group is an answer for how to draw people to *prefer* to use Fedora for this purpose. I have mentioned this on other threads, but it's not going to be good enough to *match* Ubuntu and OSX in this space. We need to exceed their ability here. We need to be finding ways to make Fedora the absolute easiest and *best* place to be trying all of these new crazy ideas that are taking off. I absolutely believe that there are risks here in the long run. Some (many) of these applications are eventually going to succeed and these developers are going to [re-]learn the difficulties of doing a stable deployment with an unstable software stack. However, I'm really not convinced that it's Fedora's place to try to teach them this lesson. I think it should be our job to enable them to deliver their best new ideas *right now* and let them figure out when it's time to re-examine the stable deployment problem. So this reply has gone on for quite some length, but I hope that I have represented my position accurately. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlJ4SEwACgkQeiVVYja6o6OshACfYaIuT1ZR6iB7yK0eo8pWXyMJ 6XgAnjvkSNoSB9ZB43SFdPv+OWzoGwd7 =FG7p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- devel mailing list devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
