On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 01:23:21PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 08:01:46AM -0400, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: > > > But spins are Fedora, same as cloud image is still Fedora (and I don't > > see complaints it does not run Gnome Shell ;-). Desktop spin is one > > spin of the many spins but we promote it (for several reasons) more than > > others. So again - I don't see this as a problem with having ARM as PA > > (I can see other issues like HW availability, build times, resources) but > > having an ARM spin composed from primary builds with a DE that suits > > still limited resources on ARM machines - no problem at all. Even blocking > > desktop release criteria are fulfilled this way as we don't require for > > example LXDE spin to ship Gnome and KDE ;-). > > If I download the Fedora installation media, boot it, select all the > defaults and then reboot into the installed system, I get a well-defined > outcome. If we promote ARM to primary and treat it in the same way, the > well-defined outcome will be different depending on whether I pick ARM > or x86. > > If I go to fedoraproject.org, the first thing I see is a picture of > Gnome Shell with "Fedora 19" written underneath it. How do we deal with > that in the ARM case? Add a disclaimer indicating that if you pick this > outwardly identical install image for a different architecture, you'll > end up with something that looks entirely different? > > > Almost-but-not-quite Fedora are remixes. Even now Fedora ARM is Fedora, > > just a secondary architecture - it's actually more a technical detail > > where the builds are done. So we already consider it Fedora! It's not > > going to change with ARM being primary. > > It's not a secondary architecture because it's built on different build > infrastructure. It's built on different build infrastructure because > it's a secondary architecture, and being a secondary architecture means > we don't make the same guarantees to users. > > From a practical point of view: how many of the proposed new features > for F20 would be absent from the ARM release? How are we going to > communicate that? This (& alot of the issues raised in this thread) focus on different user experiance / features as a reason to not promote ARM from secondary to primary arch. As a user intending to install / use Fedora ARM, is that distinction really visible though ? Fedora 19 ARM came out at the same time as Fedora 19 x86, it was fully branded as Fedora. AFAIK, there was nothing communicated to users in the F19 ARM announcement that indicates it is inferior to F19 x86 in any of the ways mentioned in this thread, it gets updates issued in the same way. IOW as a end user of F19 ARM the primary / secondary arch distinction is essentially invisible, unless they actively go looking for it. People who want to use F19 ARM are going todo so regardless of whether it is a primary or secondary arch. So if we block ARMs promotion to primary arch because of lack of say, GNOME desktop, is that really going to have any direct effect on users of F20 ARM ? I don't think so. In fact I think it arguably harms users, because having it be a secondary arch discourages maintainers of packages from getting involved & addressing issues on ARM. IMHO valid reasons to block ARM from being promoted to primary arch are things related to Fedora release process / package maintainence. eg the problem of long build times is a reasonably valid arguemnt, or the lack of access to hardware for troubleshooting problems, or lack of a formal QA plan for testing ARM releases. So back to your point of how we communicate that ARM lacks certain features. I think that is simply a case of putting something in the release notes, and we need to do that regardles of whether ARM is a primary or secondary architecture, because that distinction is mostly invisible to our users. Regards, Daniel -- |: http://berrange.com -o- http://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange/ :| |: http://libvirt.org -o- http://virt-manager.org :| |: http://autobuild.org -o- http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :| |: http://entangle-photo.org -o- http://live.gnome.org/gtk-vnc :| -- devel mailing list devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
