On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 06:43:46PM +0100, Martin Dengler wrote: > On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 12:54:38PM +0200, Aaron Sowry wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:03:05AM +0100, Martin Dengler wrote: > > > Your point about column headers is taken (explicitly, in my mail) and > > > bears no more repeating since there's a bug about it. > > > > I didn't realise there was a bug for this, which is it? > > You alluded to RH #713567 in [1], so I assumed that bug had this point > in it. Re-reading it, it does. That bug has been closed. > > > Your point about paging continues to be that you don't like it for the > > > purist reason that unix-y tools shouldn't format their output. > > > > This is not just purism for purism's sake. > > You said tools paging their tty-destined output "irked the crap"[1] > out of you and didn't otherwise disagree that other tools do this (and > other things) based on tty-ness. I'm not sure I was wrong to read > that as a purist's lament given the additional code is trivial in > length. This is not a deposition, and I'm not here to discuss semantics. Whatever you took "irked the crap" to mean, the intended meaning was that it bothers me as a symptom of poor programming convention. > > I think the point is being lost here somewhere. > > [original paging-takes-code point] > > [new points objecting to paging] > > The original point and new points you just applied to the irkesome > behaviour are simply not compelling: Matter of opinion. > that 50+ lines of pager-related C > is somehow a fearsome vector for terrible bugs and must be excised A blatant exaggeration of what was actually said. If, however, you really feel that you require concrete examples, earlier in the thread it was pointed out by Lennart that "Implicit --full when using a pager has been the default since quite some time in systemd." I'm assuming he meant "when not using tty", but whether that's a typo or not, I'm not seeing this behaviour in F15 in either the tty or non-tty case anyway. Assuming this is a bug and not just a misunderstanding, then this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say that extra logic to try and be clever *is* indeed a vector for annoying bugs. > or that the year-old chosen defaults for a new command can be changed > with flags somehow impose a crippling learning curve. Especially, > given (like I said) the precedents and utility of the defaults (which > you didn't argue with[2]). Again, an exaggeration, but with a thread of truth to it. "alias systemctl=systemctl --no-pager" has been suggested as an acceptable solution to disable paged output, except then if I pipe through less, as per every other command I use, I lose column headers. Do I need to add "--force-headers" or something to my alias too? Possibly not crippling, but learning to have to do this to get sensible output is certainly a learning curve. > 2. You said[3] you disputed the utility of paging-by-default, which is > the behaviour I praised, and that I missed your dispute as to its > utility in [1], but, no, actually, you gave no reasons why it > wasn't useful in [1]. You just said it irked you, had a real > danger of scary bugs, and had a bug when no pager was present, > none of which are arguments for uselessness. If I haven't made the disputes clear enough for you by now, then I'm afraid I'm not sure what else I can say. Uselessness it probably not the point here though, the point is all of the other downsides associated with such an implementation. Paging is certainly useful, however "|less" is not a difficult thing to type. /Aaron
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