On 11/06/2010 02:53 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 11/05/2010 09:46 PM, Michael Schwendt wrote: >> On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 17:56:51 +0100, Ralf wrote: >> >>> ABRT >> >>> It doesn't tell the user that core dumps without reproducer are >>> worthless in most cases but blindly sends out reports >> >> Parts of the Fedora user base "abuse" ABRT in that they refuse to >> fill in the empty fields. Blame the reporters not the tool. > A matter of point of view: To me this is an ABRT GUI issue. It currently > doesn't suck as much as it did before, nevertheless its usability still > leaves much to be desired. > - please, send me some ideas or mockups and I will be more than happy to change the GUI... but just complaining "it sucks" doesn't give me much information what to fix ... > As yourself: > What would you do if you were a "simple computer user" and are facing > this "flash bulb icon" asking you to become "root" - this is not true, you don't need a root for user crashes, so please don't lie ... > and to get a bugzilla > account? - yes, that's unfortunate, but what would be the solution here? allowing some anonymous account will lead to even worse situation... > > You'd call your sys-admin, who'll deinstall or deactivate ABRT pretty > soon, when you call him for the "Nth time". - don't understand, why would you call admin? maybe this comes from the wrong presumption that ABRT needs root... > As a user you'd also think "what kind of crap is this Fedora/Linux - > the WinXP I have at home is better". > - hm, wxp bug reporting is nice, because end-users can't even see where the bug went and check it's progress... if someone thinks it's better then...then I won't try to argue with him... >> It's too >> easy for such people to open tickets via ABRT and then ignore >> a maintainer's NEEDINFO request. > Correct - But the same applies to maintainers. > > My experience is, most of them ignore ABRT reports, probably because > the ABRT reports are not helpful to them and/or don't contain sufficient > infos. > - again and again and again - We know ABRT is not able to provide a good debug informations for every application we have, but the solution is not ignoring the bugs, but send us email or create a RFE in bugzilla describing what additional info you'd like and how/where to get it ... >> It's disheartening in some cases, but >> it's a people-problem not a tool-problem. > I disagree - IMO; ABRT is not end-user ready. It presumes end-users > to be familiar with redhat's infrastructure, which is a developer > infrastructure and them to be interested to get involved into Fedora > development. This simply does not apply. > >>> Also, this produces incomplete traceback in many (IMO all) cases. >> >> Cannot confirm that. > > In almost all cases, I am observing missting debuginfos even after > executing debuginfo-installs. > > > There seem to be some issues with not finding the >> needed debuginfo packages, which may be related to frequent updates of >> repos and older packages getting pruned. It may also be related to users >> updating their boxes at strange times, e.g. seldomly but immediately after >> a crash. > > Possible. This certainly this applies in some cases. > > However, I am experiencing missing debuginfos after debuginfo-install > even with what is supposed to be "uptodate" Fedora installations. > - not ABRT problem,, but there are some projects trying to deal with this which I mentioned in one of my previous emails.. (debuginfofs and retrace server) > Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
