On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Milan Crha <mcrha@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Thu, 2018-03-22 at 09:52 +0100, Matej Marusak wrote:
> Now you knew that there is something wrong with kernel and you have a
> good starting point for you later investigation.
Hi,
yes, I agree, informing is good, but this one is not useless only for
developers, it's useless also for the user. It's a starting point, but
also the final point. I do not know how to debug kernel crashes and I'd
bet the "Details" button was disabled (it's a long time, I can be
wrong), not talking that getting information from the ABRT GUI (like
the most important is the backtrace of the crash for me) is a problem,
as it's not available there at all or it cannot be copied from the GUI
(not everything in the GUI of ABRT can be copied out).
Details button being disabled is weird. If it was so, it may be that there were no details?
If it is really that case that there were no details at all, then I agree with you - we should not
bother users with it. I cannot recall ever seeing that, I also connected with few friend who use Fedora
and are nagging that kernel is always crashing and all of the reports had details enabled.
That not everything can be copied out of GUI - well I don't like the GUI as well and I would love to rewrite it from scratch.
If I want to have GUI I use Cockpit [1] (it does not yet support reporting).
[1] https://abrt.github.io/abrt/cockpit/2017/06/29/ABRT-in-cockpit/
[1] https://abrt.github.io/abrt/
My options, as I see them:
- ABRT tells me kernel crashed during boot, but doesn't let me file
the bug
As a regular user:
- file a bug in probably Red Hat bugzilla and hope kernel folks
monitor it, thus they can help/guide me and so on
- read about the crash the next boot, until...
I see it differently - regular user sees problem, if everything works then usually is not bothered at all.
If is more active, then hits report button.
As a developer:
- oops, kernel crashed. I've no idea how to debug kernel crashes
during boot, thus let's file a bug and continue as a regular
user above.
Yes developer would probably hit the report button or even create bugzilla.
So I end up with a bug and with a hope. What's the main difference
between the bug filled by ABRT and the one filled by me? As long as the
anonymous bug reports are disabled (it's the FAF for, right, bugs
cannot be filled anonymously), then the bug I fill manually is even
less useful than the one which ABRT would fill. Why? ABRT may include
basic information about the issue, like what crashed, when/where it
crashed, what versions of packages had been involved and all that
information which the developer would ask for anyway, but which I'd not
always be able to give him/her easily (see above, cannot copy
everything from the ABRT GUI). Thus ABRT-filled bug would be more
accurate and contain much more information than what the user would do.
I must repeat myself - point of disabling reporting is not to storm
developers with version of package and command (for which we have FAF,
where you can see how much reports are in which version of package, you
can see there also command etc...). Bugzilla should contain at least
reproducer/coredump or something that can be used for tracing what
happened.
However I am interested in usability of ABRT (mainly FAF, but GUI as well) and we can talk about this more and come with what should be done. But let's continue out off this thread as it a little bit OT. Either contact me on mmarusak@xxxxxxxxxx or on our mailing list abrt-devel-list@xxxxxxxxxx
MM
Frankly, my initial bug text would probably look like:
ABRT tells me about a crash of kernel after boot, but ABRT claims
the report would be useless for kernel developers, thus it doesn't
let me to report it. Could you guide me what to do now to
investigate the crash, please? It's there after each restart
of the machine.
I even do not know what heuristic is done to make ABRT think that the
human kernel developer would consider the report useless.
> (Or still, if you are experienced enough you can take closer look
> into the problem details)
This is kernel/boot related. Most users are not experienced enough, I'm
pretty sure of it.
Bye,
Milan
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