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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Máirín Duffy)
2. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Máirín Duffy)
3. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Allan Day)
4. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Allan Day)
5. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Ryan Lerch)
6. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Máirín Duffy)
7. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Debarshi Ray)
8. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Cosimo Cecchi)
9. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Máirín Duffy)
10. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Ryan Lerch)
11. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Cosimo Cecchi)
12. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Máirín Duffy)
13. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Cosimo Cecchi)
14. Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Máirín Duffy)
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:34:02 -0400
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 1
On Tue 19 Mar 2013 07:28:27 AM EDT, Allan Day wrote:
A bit of background:
The change during the 3.8 cycle was based on a couple of factors.
First, the logo interfered with the layout of the login screen: it's
a
prominent visual presence that creates another anchor point which
conflicts with the other elements on the screen (ie. it is
horizontally centered, which clashes with the anchor points in the
user list). Second, the logo was felt to be a distracting presence.
We've made an effort to make sure that the most important elements
are
the most visually prominent, and we want the primary interaction
points to be the ones that jump out at you. The logo was a strong
visual presence placed above the user list: this drew the eye to it,
making it the first thing you saw, and distracted you from the parts
of the screen that are actually useful to the user (ie. the user
list). Third and finally, having the logo in its previous position
limited the size to which the user list could grow when there are a
large number of users.
My preference is to focus the user interface on providing the best
user experience possible. That means prioritising the things that
people need to use, reducing distraction and making the UI look
great.
The addition of a logo diminishes the user experience along each of
these dimensions.
The proposal to replace the logo with a simple string in the
top-left
hand corner is intended to mitigate the negative impact of including
a
logo while retaining a visual reference to the distributor. However,
the usability issue that Ryan brought up is a valid concern about
this
proposal.
It has been suggested that not including the logo somehow weakens
distributions' ability to brand their products. My view is that this
is not the case. Branding is not the practice of slapping logos onto
products. Instead, it is the attempt to instill and promote positive
associations with the brand. The best way to do that, in my opinion,
is to make the user experience as good as it can possibly be. If you
diminish the user experience through the addition of a logo, then
you
actually harm the brand: you make the product worse, and in the
process you make it less likely that people will think good things
about your brand.
I suppose we are at a complete impasse then; to me it is completely
unacceptable to completely debrand the operating system. You do
realize
there are usability implications with that - namely, people don't
even
know what they are running in order to obtain help with it or even
identify the type of system they are using.
You have basically posed here that there is no way you will accept a
logo on the login screen. How is a compromise possible then?
~m
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:36:47 -0400
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 2
On Tue 19 Mar 2013 08:34:02 AM EDT, M=C3=A1ir=C3=ADn Duffy wrote:
On Tue 19 Mar 2013 07:28:27 AM EDT, Allan Day wrote:
A bit of background:
The change during the 3.8 cycle was based on a couple of factors.
First, the logo interfered with the layout of the login screen:
it's a
prominent visual presence that creates another anchor point which
conflicts with the other elements on the screen (ie. it is
horizontally centered, which clashes with the anchor points in the
user list). Second, the logo was felt to be a distracting presence.
We've made an effort to make sure that the most important elements
are
the most visually prominent, and we want the primary interaction
points to be the ones that jump out at you. The logo was a strong
visual presence placed above the user list: this drew the eye to
it,
making it the first thing you saw, and distracted you from the
parts
of the screen that are actually useful to the user (ie. the user
list). Third and finally, having the logo in its previous position
limited the size to which the user list could grow when there are a
large number of users.
My preference is to focus the user interface on providing the best
user experience possible. That means prioritising the things that
people need to use, reducing distraction and making the UI look
great.
The addition of a logo diminishes the user experience along each of
these dimensions.
The proposal to replace the logo with a simple string in the
top-left
hand corner is intended to mitigate the negative impact of
including a
logo while retaining a visual reference to the distributor.
However,
the usability issue that Ryan brought up is a valid concern about
this
proposal.
It has been suggested that not including the logo somehow weakens
distributions' ability to brand their products. My view is that
this
is not the case. Branding is not the practice of slapping logos
onto
products. Instead, it is the attempt to instill and promote
positive
associations with the brand. The best way to do that, in my
opinion,
is to make the user experience as good as it can possibly be. If
you
diminish the user experience through the addition of a logo, then
you
actually harm the brand: you make the product worse, and in the
process you make it less likely that people will think good things
about your brand.
I suppose we are at a complete impasse then; to me it is completely
unacceptable to completely debrand the operating system. You do
realize
there are usability implications with that - namely, people don't
even
know what they are running in order to obtain help with it or even
identify the type of system they are using.
You have basically posed here that there is no way you will accept a
logo on the login screen. How is a compromise possible then?
http://macservicesact.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/New-Mac-OS-X-Lion=
-Login-Screen.jpg
I've never seen this screen before, and I am dismayingly stricken
by=20
the similarly except for the fact that Apple has given their logo
an=20
approximately 50 x 50 px presence centered above the user login
dialog.
~m
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From: Allan Day <allanpday@xxxxxxxxx>
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:46:14 +0000
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 3
M=E1ir=EDn Duffy <duffy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I suppose we are at a complete impasse then; to me it is completely
unacceptable to completely debrand the operating system. You do
realize
there are usability implications with that - namely, people don't
even
know what they are running in order to obtain help with it or even
identify the type of system they are using.
You have basically posed here that there is no way you will accept a
logo on the login screen. How is a compromise possible then?
I was trying to explain my position and my concerns. I'm happy to
explore the options. However, I would be much more comfortable doing
that in an upstream setting.
Allan
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:50:28 +0000
Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 4
M=E1ir=EDn Duffy <duffy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
http://macservicesact.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/New-Mac-OS-X-Lion=
-Login-Screen.jpg
I've never seen this screen before, and I am dismayingly stricken by
the similarly except for the fact that Apple has given their logo an
approximately 50 x 50 px presence centered above the user login
dialog.
Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. ;)
One thing that is noticeable about this design is that they have made
the logo less visually prominent by giving it an embossed appearance.
Given the concern to reduce the attention grabbing nature of the
logo,
this certainly has merit.
Allan
--
IRC: aday on irc.gnome.org
Blog: http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 09:02:26 -0400
Reply-To: rlerch@xxxxxxxxxx,
Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 5
On 03/19/2013 07:28 AM, Allan Day wrote:
MáirÃn Duffy <duffy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mon 18 Mar 2013 05:54:42 PM EDT, Clyde E. Kunkel wrote:
I am not a programmer, but, that said, why can't you put a decent
sized fedora logo above the users section. If the number of users
exceeds a certain number, then create a window with a slider bar
on
the right. This just does not seem like rocket science. :-)
Isn't GNOME shell primarily designed as a single-user experience?
I think it's a good idea to special case the single user case. We
still want to provide a good multi-user experience though.
How
frequently are we expecting there to be a case where there are
enough
users in the list for a logo placed as suggested by Ray in comment
13
(https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=694912#c13)
Even if it is a corner case, it's something we should handle, I
think.
I see a 'solution' looking for a problem here. The problem isn't
the
Fedora logo looks bad when given exactly 9 pixels of vertical space
(what logo would?) The problem is... I'm really not sure what. Can
you
help me understand? I see this multi-monitor use related bug has
been
cited:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=685852
It says "The distribution logo is displayed in the middle above the
list. This visually
clashes with the layout of the rest of the login screen. It would
be
better to
place the logo in the top-left hand corner of the screen, in the
top
bar. "
There is no screenshot, so I am unsure of how it 'visually clashes'
with the rest of the login screen, and I'm not sure what it has to
do
with multi-monitor, if anything. A GNOME wiki link is provided,
which I
clicked on (https://live.gnome.org/Boston2012/Multimonitor) and
found
the exact same text:
"The distribution logo is displayed in the middle above the list.
This
visually clashes with the layout of the rest of the login screen.
It
would be better to place the logo in the top-left hand corner of
the
screen, in the top bar. #685852"
Please help me understand what exactly the problem is here?
A bit of background:
The change during the 3.8 cycle was based on a couple of factors.
First, the logo interfered with the layout of the login screen: it's
a
prominent visual presence that creates another anchor point which
conflicts with the other elements on the screen (ie. it is
horizontally centered, which clashes with the anchor points in the
user list).
I agree with this. The alignment of the usernames to the left while
the
full logo (with both logo and logotype) was centre aligned did not
really work.
However were any other alignment / layout options considered here? if
we
reduced the design to just the logo, you lose some of the
interference
between the anchor points of the logo and the userlist layout:
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/justthelogo.png
Or could the usernames be presented in a out horizontal layout?
(although, this one makes the login screen very close to the OSX
designs)
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/horizontal.png
Second, the logo was felt to be a distracting presence.
We've made an effort to make sure that the most important elements
are
the most visually prominent, and we want the primary interaction
points to be the ones that jump out at you. The logo was a strong
visual presence placed above the user list: this drew the eye to it,
making it the first thing you saw, and distracted you from the parts
of the screen that are actually useful to the user (ie. the user
list).
Were any tests done to prove the hypothesis that the placement of the
old fedora logo was distracting users from the interactive parts of
the
screen? If that was the issue that was trying to be solved, was any
thought given to putting the logo towards the bottom of the screen?
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/logobottom.png
My preference is to focus the user interface on providing the best
user experience possible. That means prioritising the things that
people need to use, reducing distraction and making the UI look
great.
The addition of a logo diminishes the user experience along each of
these dimensions.
The proposal to replace the logo with a simple string in the
top-left
hand corner is intended to mitigate the negative impact of including
a
logo while retaining a visual reference to the distributor. However,
the usability issue that Ryan brought up is a valid concern about
this
proposal.
It has been suggested that not including the logo somehow weakens
distributions' ability to brand their products. My view is that this
is not the case. Branding is not the practice of slapping logos onto
products. Instead, it is the attempt to instill and promote positive
associations with the brand. The best way to do that, in my opinion,
is to make the user experience as good as it can possibly be.
True, you want to promote positive associations with a brand. And if
the
logo is too prominent, or there are too many logos, you end up
diluting
the brand. If all text is bold, nothing stands out.
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/logotoomany.png
However if the mark of the brand is *nowhere* you are merely
promoting
positive associations with a generic grey background.
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/nologo.png
I am not suggesting that we slap logo(s) over everything, simply
include
a clear definition to the user of brand at the point they start using
the system.
regards,
ryanlerch
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 10:17:44 -0400
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 6
On 03/19/2013 08:46 AM, Allan Day wrote:
I was trying to explain my position and my concerns. I'm happy to
explore the options. However, I would be much more comfortable doing
that in an upstream setting.
Why don't we explore the options right here in the affected
community? I
am not a member of the GNOME community anymore. We are both members
of
the Fedora community.
~m
Why don't we explore the options right here in the affected
community?
Fedora is not the only consumer of GNOME.
am not a member of the GNOME community anymore.
What does that mean? You are even listed at
http://www.gnome.org/foundation/membership/
Cheers,
Debarshi
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 10:25:42 -0400
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 8
On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 09:02 -0400, Ryan Lerch wrote:
However if the mark of the brand is *nowhere* you are merely
promoting
positive associations with a generic grey background.
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/nologo.png
I am not suggesting that we slap logo(s) over everything, simply
include
a clear definition to the user of brand at the point they start
using
the system.
Genuine question: why do you feel the login screen is a good place to
promote any kind of positive brand association? All I usually want to
do
from that screen is to get out of it as quickly and seamlessly as
possible. Under this perspective, having it plainly unbranded and
focused exclusively on its task — get me to my session and my work
—
makes sense to me.
Cosimo
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 10:49:33 -0400
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 9
On 03/19/2013 10:25 AM, Debarshi Ray wrote:
Why don't we explore the options right here in the affected
community?
Fedora is not the only consumer of GNOME.
It's a pretty important one, don't you think?
am not a member of the GNOME community anymore.
What does that mean? You are even listed at
http://www.gnome.org/foundation/membership/
I delisted my blog from planet gnome well over a year ago and
withdrew
my foundation membership - I should *not* be on that list.
Either way, my point is let's not spend a week talking about how we
need
to talk about this and instead talk about it on neutral ground
everyone
is comfortable with.
~m
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To: Cosimo Cecchi <ccecchi@xxxxxxxxxx>
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 10:59:33 -0400
Reply-To: rlerch@xxxxxxxxxx,
Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 10
On 03/19/2013 10:25 AM, Cosimo Cecchi wrote:
On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 09:02 -0400, Ryan Lerch wrote:
However if the mark of the brand is *nowhere* you are merely
promoting
positive associations with a generic grey background.
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/nologo.png
I am not suggesting that we slap logo(s) over everything, simply
include
a clear definition to the user of brand at the point they start
using
the system.
Genuine question: why do you feel the login screen is a good place
to
promote any kind of positive brand association?
This is the entry point to the Fedora user experience. Having the
logo
on the sign in screen is conceptually similar to having a sign on the
door.
All I usually want to do
from that screen is to get out of it as quickly and seamlessly as
possible. Under this perspective, having it plainly unbranded and
focused exclusively on its task — get me to my session and my work
—
makes sense to me.
Cosimo
From a usability perspective, I fail to see how a subtle logo here
makes it harder to use. Having some user testing the hypothesis that
a
logo reduces productivity of the login screen would be a good place
to
start before removing whole elements.
Finally, a question. If we don't have the sign the doorway to Fedora,
then where should the name of the brand be presented? I think it
would
be a step backwards to have the OS brand mark polluting the main
interface of the desktop that a user stares at for 8 hours a day.
regards,
ryanlerch
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From: Cosimo Cecchi <ccecchi@xxxxxxxxxx>
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:22:51 -0400
Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 11
On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 10:59 -0400, Ryan Lerch wrote:
> Genuine question: why do you feel the login screen is a good place
to
> promote any kind of positive brand association?
This is the entry point to the Fedora user experience. Having the
logo
on the sign in screen is conceptually similar to having a sign on
the door.
If you want to follow this analogy, it would be more as if the door
of
my house had a permanent logo/sign of the realtor agency I bought it
from...
> All I usually want to do
> from that screen is to get out of it as quickly and seamlessly as
> possible. Under this perspective, having it plainly unbranded and
> focused exclusively on its task — get me to my session and my
work —
> makes sense to me.
>
> Cosimo
From a usability perspective, I fail to see how a subtle logo here
makes it harder to use. Having some user testing the hypothesis that
a
logo reduces productivity of the login screen would be a good place
to
start before removing whole elements.
I didn't say it makes it *harder* to use. To my taste, it just feels
redundant/distracting and maybe a bit cheesy though.
Finally, a question. If we don't have the sign the doorway to
Fedora,
then where should the name of the brand be presented? I think it
would
be a step backwards to have the OS brand mark polluting the main
interface of the desktop that a user stares at for 8 hours a day.
Good question; having it always visible in the desktop is a huge step
backwards of course (and we agree it's a non starter). My personal
opinion is it's debatable you should present it at all, since the
user
knows what it downloaded and installed himself.
Who is supposed to look at that doorway and from where? In other
words,
I don't think I can have an answer to that question unless it's very
clear who's the intended target of that branding.
Cheers,
Cosimo
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:26:20 -0400
Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 12
On Tue 19 Mar 2013 12:22:51 PM EDT, Cosimo Cecchi wrote:
Good question; having it always visible in the desktop is a huge
step
backwards of course (and we agree it's a non starter). My personal
opinion is it's debatable you should present it at all, since the
user
knows what it downloaded and installed himself.
Let's be fair - in a multi-situation, it is necessarily that only one
of the users involved installed the system. In a computer lab
situation
or in an employee preload situation (maybe the latter wouldn't be
Fedora, but RHEL) the users did not install it themselves.
~m
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From: Cosimo Cecchi <ccecchi@xxxxxxxxxx>
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Cc: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
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To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy <duffy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:09:26 -0400
Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 13
On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 12:26 -0400, MáirÃn Duffy wrote:
On Tue 19 Mar 2013 12:22:51 PM EDT, Cosimo Cecchi wrote:
> Good question; having it always visible in the desktop is a huge
step
> backwards of course (and we agree it's a non starter). My personal
> opinion is it's debatable you should present it at all, since the
user
> knows what it downloaded and installed himself.
Let's be fair - in a multi-situation, it is necessarily that only
one
of the users involved installed the system. In a computer lab
situation
or in an employee preload situation (maybe the latter wouldn't be
Fedora, but RHEL) the users did not install it themselves.
That's true. But in a preloaded/locked-down situation where the user
doesn't have full, or any, control on the software installed on the
machine the requirements might be different:
- the logo would likely not be the stock distributor's one, but one
identifying the organization providing that leased/temporary service
to
the user. I can think of a number of reasons related to
billing/support/accountability as of why this makes a lot more sense
than in the "personal use" case.
- it's still unclear to me the benefit to the user and/or the
distributor in showing a logo in that scenario. For example, if the
machine has a corporate lockdown, that fact alone might discourage
users
trying to install the same OS on another personal machine. This is in
my
opinion related to the question I was asking in the second part of my
above previous message.
Cheers,
Cosimo
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To: Cosimo Cecchi <ccecchi@xxxxxxxxxx>
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:33:10 -0400
Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
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Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen
Message: 14
On 03/19/2013 01:09 PM, Cosimo Cecchi wrote:
- the logo would likely not be the stock distributor's one, but one
identifying the organization providing that leased/temporary service
to
the user. I can think of a number of reasons related to
billing/support/accountability as of why this makes a lot more sense
than in the "personal use" case.
At least with RHEL, IANAL but I'm not quite sure legally it's okay to
strip all RH logos from the distribution without additional burdens
such
as compliance with the GPL in making the source available and other
requirements under Red Hat Trademark guidelines and potential impact
to
your support contract, see
http://www.redhat.com/about/mediarelations/trademark.html
- it's still unclear to me the benefit to the user and/or the
distributor in showing a logo in that scenario. For example, if the
machine has a corporate lockdown, that fact alone might discourage
users
trying to install the same OS on another personal machine. This is
in my
opinion related to the question I was asking in the second part of
my
above previous message.
I'm not really sure it's a major concern that users would feel
discouraged to install Fedora or RHEL on their home machine because
they
experienced it on a corporate install as locked down - RHEL is not
meant
for use on home machines, and it's questionable whether or not an
organization (I am assuming campus / nonprofit) that preloaded
*Fedora*
as a desktop would lock it down as much as in a more corporate
situation
since these type of organizations typically have less resources and
more
flexible policies around computing. This seems a very weak argument
to
me, and certainly the 'solution' of hiding the identity of the OS is
an
odd way to solve this 'problem.'
~m
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