On 2025/02/07 4:37, Danilo Krummrich wrote: > On Thu, Feb 06, 2025 at 06:19:42PM +0900, Hector Martin wrote: >> >> If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, > > Most importantly be *consistent* with good technical arguments, calmly focus on > your actual matter rather than escalating any surrounding details. > > Accept that sometimes things can't be reached directly, but additional work is > needed to change the preconditions. > > Goals aren't reached by burning bridges, but by building them. Sometimes you > may not be able to build a bridge where you would like to. But you can still > look for alternative routes with and within the community. > > Surely, it does take time and energy, but certainly there's no shortcut. I'm not talking about individual technical problems. You cannot solve social and community problems with technical arguments. Yes, given enough patience and technical argumentation, you can get code into the kernel, or maybe even get some existing code refactored. That doesn't change the fact that the process is often quite terrible, hostile to newcomers, demoralizing, and by wide consensus much worse than practically any other FOSS project, even those of similar scope to the kernel. And what I see, is very little effort to improve that status quo, or at least very little that yields any actual change that isn't just band-aids (e.g. tooling like b4, which is nice and appreciated, but doesn't fix any underlying issues). And that's not going to change no matter how many long technical arguments we have on the MLs (or even off MLs, since MLs are also not particularly good for this, and I've seen multiple arguments only reach a resolution after being redirected to IRC). But I've used up all my spoons for this, and clearly Linus doesn't think there's a problem in this thread worth replying to other than myself, so I'm giving up on fighting for any change or being part of the kernel maintainer community. Whether the rest of the kernel community chooses to continue to live in an ugly bubble or actually try to fix some of these systemic issues, is up to them. - Hector
