Hi,
How wide are your EC profiles? If they are really wide, you might be
reaching the limits of what is physically possible. Also, I'm not sure
that upmap in 14.2.11 is very smart about *improving* existing upmap
rules for a given PG, in the case that a PG already has an upmap-items
entry but it would help the distribution to add more mapping pairs to
that entry. What this means, is that it might sometimes be useful to
randomly remove some upmap entries and see if the balancer does a
better job when it replaces them.
But before you do that, I re-remembered that looking at the total PG
numbers is not useful -- you need to check the PGs per OSD for the
eu-central-1.rgw.buckets.data pool only.
We have a couple tools that can help with this:
1. To see the PGs per OSD for a given pool:
https://github.com/cernceph/ceph-scripts/blob/master/tools/ceph-pool-pg-distribution
E.g.: ./ceph-pool-pg-distribution 11 # to see the distribution of
your eu-central-1.rgw.buckets.data pool.
The output looks like this on my well balanced clusters:
# ceph-scripts/tools/ceph-pool-pg-distribution 15
Searching for PGs in pools: ['15']
Summary: 256 pgs on 56 osds
Num OSDs with X PGs:
13: 16
14: 40
You should expect a trimodal for your cluster.
2. You can also use another script from that repo to see the PGs per
OSD normalized to crush weight:
ceph-scripts/tools/ceph-pg-histogram --normalize --pool=15
This might explain what is going wrong.
Cheers, Dan
On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 3:04 PM Boris Behrens <bb@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Absolutly:
> [root@s3db1 ~]# ceph osd df tree
> ID CLASS WEIGHT REWEIGHT SIZE RAW USE DATA OMAP META AVAIL %USE VAR PGS STATUS TYPE NAME
> -1 673.54224 - 674 TiB 496 TiB 468 TiB 97 GiB 1.2 TiB 177 TiB 73.67 1.00 - root default
> -2 58.30331 - 58 TiB 42 TiB 38 TiB 9.2 GiB 99 GiB 16 TiB 72.88 0.99 - host s3db1
> 23 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 714 MiB 25 GiB 3.7 TiB 74.87 1.02 194 up osd.23
> 69 hdd 14.55269 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 1.6 GiB 40 GiB 3.4 TiB 76.32 1.04 199 up osd.69
> 73 hdd 14.55269 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 1.3 GiB 34 GiB 3.8 TiB 74.15 1.01 203 up osd.73
> 79 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.4 TiB 1.3 TiB 1.8 GiB 0 B 1.3 TiB 65.44 0.89 47 up osd.79
> 80 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.4 TiB 1.3 TiB 2.2 GiB 0 B 1.3 TiB 65.34 0.89 48 up osd.80
> 81 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.4 TiB 1.3 TiB 1.1 GiB 0 B 1.3 TiB 65.38 0.89 47 up osd.81
> 82 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.5 TiB 1.1 TiB 619 MiB 0 B 1.1 TiB 68.46 0.93 41 up osd.82
> -11 50.94173 - 51 TiB 37 TiB 37 TiB 3.5 GiB 98 GiB 14 TiB 71.90 0.98 - host s3db10
> 63 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.3 TiB 5.3 TiB 647 MiB 14 GiB 2.0 TiB 72.72 0.99 94 up osd.63
> 64 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.3 TiB 5.2 TiB 668 MiB 14 GiB 2.0 TiB 72.23 0.98 93 up osd.64
> 65 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.2 TiB 5.2 TiB 227 MiB 14 GiB 2.1 TiB 71.16 0.97 100 up osd.65
> 66 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.4 TiB 5.4 TiB 313 MiB 14 GiB 1.9 TiB 74.25 1.01 92 up osd.66
> 67 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.1 TiB 5.1 TiB 584 MiB 14 GiB 2.1 TiB 70.63 0.96 96 up osd.67
> 68 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.2 TiB 5.2 TiB 720 MiB 14 GiB 2.1 TiB 71.72 0.97 101 up osd.68
> 70 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.1 TiB 5.1 TiB 425 MiB 14 GiB 2.1 TiB 70.59 0.96 97 up osd.70
> -12 50.99052 - 51 TiB 38 TiB 37 TiB 2.1 GiB 97 GiB 13 TiB 73.77 1.00 - host s3db11
> 46 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.6 TiB 5.6 TiB 229 MiB 14 GiB 1.7 TiB 77.05 1.05 97 up osd.46
> 47 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.1 TiB 5.1 TiB 159 MiB 13 GiB 2.2 TiB 70.00 0.95 89 up osd.47
> 48 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.2 TiB 5.2 TiB 279 MiB 14 GiB 2.1 TiB 71.82 0.97 98 up osd.48
> 49 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.5 TiB 5.4 TiB 276 MiB 14 GiB 1.8 TiB 74.90 1.02 95 up osd.49
> 50 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.2 TiB 5.2 TiB 336 MiB 14 GiB 2.0 TiB 72.13 0.98 93 up osd.50
> 51 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.7 TiB 5.6 TiB 728 MiB 15 GiB 1.6 TiB 77.76 1.06 98 up osd.51
> 72 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.3 TiB 5.3 TiB 147 MiB 13 GiB 2.0 TiB 72.75 0.99 95 up osd.72
> -37 58.55478 - 59 TiB 44 TiB 44 TiB 4.4 GiB 122 GiB 15 TiB 75.20 1.02 - host s3db12
> 19 hdd 3.68750 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.9 TiB 2.9 TiB 454 MiB 8.2 GiB 780 GiB 79.35 1.08 53 up osd.19
> 71 hdd 3.68750 1.00000 3.7 TiB 3.0 TiB 2.9 TiB 7.1 MiB 8.0 GiB 734 GiB 80.56 1.09 47 up osd.71
> 75 hdd 3.68750 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.9 TiB 2.9 TiB 439 MiB 8.2 GiB 777 GiB 79.43 1.08 48 up osd.75
> 76 hdd 3.68750 1.00000 3.7 TiB 3.0 TiB 3.0 TiB 241 MiB 8.9 GiB 688 GiB 81.77 1.11 50 up osd.76
> 77 hdd 14.60159 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 880 MiB 30 GiB 3.6 TiB 75.44 1.02 201 up osd.77
> 78 hdd 14.60159 1.00000 15 TiB 10 TiB 10 TiB 1015 MiB 28 GiB 4.2 TiB 71.26 0.97 193 up osd.78
> 83 hdd 14.60159 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 1.4 GiB 30 GiB 3.8 TiB 73.76 1.00 203 up osd.83
> -3 58.49872 - 58 TiB 42 TiB 36 TiB 8.2 GiB 89 GiB 17 TiB 71.71 0.97 - host s3db2
> 1 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 3.2 GiB 37 GiB 3.7 TiB 74.58 1.01 196 up osd.1
> 3 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.3 TiB 1.3 TiB 566 MiB 0 B 1.3 TiB 64.11 0.87 50 up osd.3
> 4 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.9 TiB 771 GiB 695 MiB 0 B 771 GiB 79.30 1.08 48 up osd.4
> 5 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.4 TiB 1.2 TiB 482 MiB 0 B 1.2 TiB 66.51 0.90 49 up osd.5
> 6 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.3 TiB 1.3 TiB 1.8 GiB 0 B 1.3 TiB 64.00 0.87 42 up osd.6
> 7 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 639 MiB 26 GiB 4.0 TiB 72.44 0.98 192 up osd.7
> 74 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 10 TiB 10 TiB 907 MiB 26 GiB 4.2 TiB 71.32 0.97 193 up osd.74
> -4 58.49872 - 58 TiB 43 TiB 36 TiB 34 GiB 85 GiB 16 TiB 72.69 0.99 - host s3db3
> 2 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 980 MiB 26 GiB 3.8 TiB 74.36 1.01 203 up osd.2
> 9 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 8.4 GiB 33 GiB 3.9 TiB 73.51 1.00 186 up osd.9
> 10 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 10 TiB 10 TiB 650 MiB 26 GiB 4.2 TiB 71.64 0.97 201 up osd.10
> 12 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.3 TiB 1.3 TiB 754 MiB 0 B 1.3 TiB 64.17 0.87 44 up osd.12
> 13 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.8 TiB 813 GiB 2.4 GiB 0 B 813 GiB 78.17 1.06 58 up osd.13
> 14 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.9 TiB 797 GiB 19 GiB 0 B 797 GiB 78.60 1.07 56 up osd.14
> 15 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.3 TiB 1.3 TiB 2.2 GiB 0 B 1.3 TiB 63.96 0.87 41 up osd.15
> -5 58.49872 - 58 TiB 43 TiB 36 TiB 6.7 GiB 97 GiB 15 TiB 74.04 1.01 - host s3db4
> 11 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 940 MiB 26 GiB 4.0 TiB 72.49 0.98 196 up osd.11
> 17 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 1022 MiB 26 GiB 3.6 TiB 75.23 1.02 204 up osd.17
> 18 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 945 MiB 45 GiB 3.8 TiB 74.16 1.01 193 up osd.18
> 20 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.6 TiB 1020 GiB 596 MiB 0 B 1020 GiB 72.62 0.99 57 up osd.20
> 21 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.6 TiB 1023 GiB 1.9 GiB 0 B 1023 GiB 72.54 0.98 41 up osd.21
> 22 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.6 TiB 1023 GiB 797 MiB 0 B 1023 GiB 72.54 0.98 53 up osd.22
> 24 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.9 TiB 766 GiB 618 MiB 0 B 766 GiB 79.42 1.08 46 up osd.24
> -6 58.89636 - 59 TiB 43 TiB 43 TiB 3.0 GiB 108 GiB 16 TiB 73.40 1.00 - host s3db5
> 0 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.7 TiB 2.6 TiB 92 MiB 7.2 GiB 1.1 TiB 71.16 0.97 45 up osd.0
> 25 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.7 TiB 2.6 TiB 2.4 MiB 7.3 GiB 1.1 TiB 71.23 0.97 41 up osd.25
> 26 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.8 TiB 2.7 TiB 181 MiB 7.6 GiB 935 GiB 75.57 1.03 45 up osd.26
> 27 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.7 TiB 2.6 TiB 5.1 MiB 7.0 GiB 1.1 TiB 71.20 0.97 47 up osd.27
> 28 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 977 MiB 26 GiB 3.8 TiB 73.85 1.00 197 up osd.28
> 29 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 10 TiB 872 MiB 26 GiB 4.1 TiB 71.98 0.98 196 up osd.29
> 30 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 943 MiB 27 GiB 3.6 TiB 75.51 1.03 202 up osd.30
> -7 58.89636 - 59 TiB 44 TiB 43 TiB 13 GiB 122 GiB 15 TiB 74.97 1.02 - host s3db6
> 32 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.8 TiB 2.7 TiB 27 MiB 7.6 GiB 940 GiB 75.42 1.02 55 up osd.32
> 33 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 3.1 TiB 3.0 TiB 376 MiB 8.2 GiB 691 GiB 81.94 1.11 55 up osd.33
> 34 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 3.1 TiB 3.0 TiB 450 MiB 8.5 GiB 620 GiB 83.79 1.14 54 up osd.34
> 35 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 3.1 TiB 3.0 TiB 316 MiB 8.4 GiB 690 GiB 81.98 1.11 50 up osd.35
> 36 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 10 TiB 489 MiB 25 GiB 4.1 TiB 71.69 0.97 208 up osd.36
> 37 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 11 GiB 38 GiB 4.0 TiB 72.41 0.98 195 up osd.37
> 38 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 1.1 GiB 26 GiB 3.7 TiB 74.88 1.02 204 up osd.38
> -8 58.89636 - 59 TiB 44 TiB 43 TiB 3.8 GiB 111 GiB 15 TiB 74.16 1.01 - host s3db7
> 39 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.8 TiB 2.7 TiB 19 MiB 7.5 GiB 936 GiB 75.54 1.03 39 up osd.39
> 40 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.6 TiB 2.5 TiB 144 MiB 7.1 GiB 1.1 TiB 69.87 0.95 39 up osd.40
> 41 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.7 TiB 2.7 TiB 219 MiB 7.6 GiB 1011 GiB 73.57 1.00 55 up osd.41
> 42 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.6 TiB 2.5 TiB 593 MiB 7.1 GiB 1.1 TiB 70.02 0.95 47 up osd.42
> 43 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 500 MiB 27 GiB 3.7 TiB 74.67 1.01 204 up osd.43
> 44 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 1.1 GiB 27 GiB 3.7 TiB 74.62 1.01 193 up osd.44
> 45 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 1.2 GiB 29 GiB 3.6 TiB 75.16 1.02 204 up osd.45
> -9 51.28331 - 51 TiB 39 TiB 39 TiB 4.9 GiB 107 GiB 12 TiB 76.50 1.04 - host s3db8
> 8 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.6 TiB 5.5 TiB 474 MiB 14 GiB 1.7 TiB 76.37 1.04 98 up osd.8
> 16 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.7 TiB 5.7 TiB 783 MiB 15 GiB 1.6 TiB 78.39 1.06 100 up osd.16
> 31 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.7 TiB 5.6 TiB 441 MiB 14 GiB 1.6 TiB 77.70 1.05 91 up osd.31
> 52 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.6 TiB 5.5 TiB 939 MiB 14 GiB 1.7 TiB 76.29 1.04 102 up osd.52
> 53 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.4 TiB 5.4 TiB 848 MiB 18 GiB 1.9 TiB 74.30 1.01 98 up osd.53
> 54 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.6 TiB 5.6 TiB 1.0 GiB 16 GiB 1.7 TiB 76.99 1.05 106 up osd.54
> 55 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.5 TiB 5.5 TiB 460 MiB 15 GiB 1.8 TiB 75.46 1.02 105 up osd.55
> -10 51.28331 - 51 TiB 37 TiB 37 TiB 3.8 GiB 96 GiB 14 TiB 72.77 0.99 - host s3db9
> 56 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.2 TiB 5.2 TiB 846 MiB 13 GiB 2.1 TiB 71.16 0.97 104 up osd.56
> 57 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.6 TiB 5.6 TiB 513 MiB 15 GiB 1.7 TiB 76.53 1.04 96 up osd.57
> 58 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.2 TiB 5.2 TiB 604 MiB 13 GiB 2.1 TiB 71.23 0.97 98 up osd.58
> 59 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.1 TiB 5.1 TiB 414 MiB 13 GiB 2.2 TiB 70.03 0.95 88 up osd.59
> 60 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.5 TiB 5.5 TiB 227 MiB 14 GiB 1.8 TiB 75.54 1.03 97 up osd.60
> 61 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.1 TiB 5.1 TiB 456 MiB 13 GiB 2.2 TiB 70.01 0.95 95 up osd.61
> 62 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.5 TiB 5.4 TiB 843 MiB 14 GiB 1.8 TiB 74.93 1.02 110 up osd.62
> TOTAL 674 TiB 496 TiB 468 TiB 97 GiB 1.2 TiB 177 TiB 73.67
> MIN/MAX VAR: 0.87/1.14 STDDEV: 4.22
>
> Am Mo., 15. März 2021 um 15:02 Uhr schrieb Dan van der Ster <dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>
>> OK thanks. Indeed "prepared 0/10 changes" means it thinks things are balanced.
>> Could you again share the full ceph osd df tree?
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 2:54 PM Boris Behrens <bb@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Dan,
>> >
>> > I've set the autoscaler to warn, but it actually does not warn for now. So not touching it for now.
>> >
>> > this is what the log says in minute intervals:
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:00.970 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr get_config get_config key: mgr/balancer/active
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:00.970 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr get_config get_config key: mgr/balancer/sleep_interval
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:00.970 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr get_config get_config key: mgr/balancer/begin_time
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:00.970 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr get_config get_config key: mgr/balancer/end_time
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:00.970 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr get_config get_config key: mgr/balancer/begin_weekday
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:00.970 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr get_config get_config key: mgr/balancer/end_weekday
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:00.971 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr get_config get_config key: mgr/balancer/pool_ids
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:01.203 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr[balancer] Optimize plan auto_2021-03-15_13:51:00
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:01.203 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr get_config get_config key: mgr/balancer/mode
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:01.203 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr[balancer] Mode upmap, max misplaced 0.050000
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:01.203 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr[balancer] do_upmap
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:01.203 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr get_config get_config key: mgr/balancer/upmap_max_iterations
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:01.203 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr get_config get_config key: mgr/balancer/upmap_max_deviation
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:01.203 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr[balancer] pools ['eu-msg-1.rgw.data.root', 'eu-msg-1.rgw.buckets.non-ec', 'eu-central-1.rgw.users.keys', 'eu-central-1.rgw.gc', 'eu-central-1.rgw.buckets.data', 'eu-central-1.rgw.users.email', 'eu-msg-1.rgw.gc', 'eu-central-1.rgw.usage', 'eu-msg-1.rgw.users.keys', 'eu-central-1.rgw.buckets.index', 'rbd', 'eu-msg-1.rgw.log', 'whitespace-again-2021-03-10_2', 'eu-msg-1.rgw.buckets.index', 'eu-msg-1.rgw.meta', 'eu-central-1.rgw.log', 'default.rgw.gc', 'eu-central-1.rgw.buckets.non-ec', 'eu-msg-1.rgw.usage', 'whitespace-again-2021-03-10', 'fra-1.rgw.meta', 'eu-central-1.rgw.users.uid', 'eu-msg-1.rgw.users.email', 'fra-1.rgw.control', 'eu-msg-1.rgw.users.uid', 'eu-msg-1.rgw.control', '.rgw.root', 'eu-msg-1.rgw.buckets.data', 'default.rgw.control', 'fra-1.rgw.log', 'default.rgw.data.root', 'whitespace-again-2021-03-10_3', 'default.rgw.log', 'eu-central-1.rgw.meta', 'eu-central-1.rgw.data.root', 'default.rgw.users.uid', 'eu-central-1.rgw.control']
>> > 2021-03-15 13:51:01.224 7f307d5fd700 4 mgr[balancer] prepared 0/10 changes
>> >
>> > Am Mo., 15. März 2021 um 14:15 Uhr schrieb Dan van der Ster <dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>> >>
>> >> I suggest to just disable the autoscaler until your balancing is understood.
>> >>
>> >> What does your active mgr log say (with debug_mgr 4/5), grep balancer
>> >> /var/log/ceph/ceph-mgr.*.log
>> >>
>> >> -- Dan
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 1:47 PM Boris Behrens <bb@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> > this unfortunally did not solve my problem. I still have some OSDs that fill up to 85%
>> >> >
>> >> > According to the logging, the autoscaler might want to add more PGs to one Bucken and reduce almost all other buckets to 32.
>> >> > 2021-03-15 12:19:58.825 7f307f601700 4 mgr[pg_autoscaler] Pool 'eu-central-1.rgw.buckets.data' root_id -1 using 0.705080476146 of space, bias 1.0, pg target 1974.22533321 quantized to 2048 (current 1024)
>> >> >
>> >> > Why the balancing does not happen is still nebulous to me.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Am Sa., 13. März 2021 um 16:37 Uhr schrieb Dan van der Ster <dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> OK
>> >> >> Btw, you might need to fail to a new mgr... I'm not sure if the current active will read that new config.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> .. dan
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 4:36 PM Boris Behrens <bb@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Hi,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ok thanks. I just changed the value and rewighted everything back to 1. Now I let it sync the weekend and check how it will be on monday.
>> >> >>> We tried to have the systems total storage balanced as possible. New systems will be with 8TB disks but for the exiting ones we added 16TB to offset the 4TB disks and we needed a lot of storage fast, because of a DC move. If you have any recommendations I would be happy to hear them.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Cheers
>> >> >>> Boris
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Am Sa., 13. März 2021 um 16:20 Uhr schrieb Dan van der Ster <dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Thanks.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Decreasing the max deviation to 2 or 1 should help in your case. This option controls when the balancer stops trying to move PGs around -- by default it stops when the deviation from the mean is 5. Yes this is too large IMO -- all of our clusters have this set to 1.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> And given that you have some OSDs with more than 200 PGs, you definitely shouldn't increase the num PGs.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> But anyway with your mixed device sizes it might be challenging to make a perfectly uniform distribution. Give it a try with 1 though, and let us know how it goes.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> .. Dan
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> On Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 4:11 PM Boris Behrens <bb@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Hi Dan,
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> upmap_max_deviation is default (5) in our cluster. Is 1 the recommended deviation?
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> I added the whole ceph osd df tree, (I need to remove some OSDs and readd them as bluestore with SSD, so 69, 73 and 82 are a bit off now. I also reweighted to try to get the %USE mitigated).
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> I will increase the mgr debugging to see what is the problem.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> [root@s3db1 ~]# ceph osd df tree
>> >> >>>>> ID CLASS WEIGHT REWEIGHT SIZE RAW USE DATA OMAP META AVAIL %USE VAR PGS STATUS TYPE NAME
>> >> >>>>> -1 673.54224 - 659 TiB 491 TiB 464 TiB 96 GiB 1.2 TiB 168 TiB 74.57 1.00 - root default
>> >> >>>>> -2 58.30331 - 44 TiB 22 TiB 17 TiB 5.7 GiB 38 GiB 22 TiB 49.82 0.67 - host s3db1
>> >> >>>>> 23 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 1.8 TiB 1.7 TiB 156 MiB 4.4 GiB 13 TiB 12.50 0.17 101 up osd.23
>> >> >>>>> 69 hdd 14.55269 0 0 B 0 B 0 B 0 B 0 B 0 B 0 0 11 up osd.69
>> >> >>>>> 73 hdd 14.55269 1.00000 15 TiB 10 TiB 10 TiB 6.1 MiB 33 GiB 4.2 TiB 71.15 0.95 107 up osd.73
>> >> >>>>> 79 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.9 TiB 747 GiB 2.0 GiB 0 B 747 GiB 79.94 1.07 52 up osd.79
>> >> >>>>> 80 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.6 TiB 1.0 TiB 1.9 GiB 0 B 1.0 TiB 71.61 0.96 58 up osd.80
>> >> >>>>> 81 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.2 TiB 1.5 TiB 1.1 GiB 0 B 1.5 TiB 60.07 0.81 55 up osd.81
>> >> >>>>> 82 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 1.9 TiB 1.7 TiB 536 MiB 0 B 1.7 TiB 52.68 0.71 30 up osd.82
>> >> >>>>> -11 50.94173 - 51 TiB 38 TiB 38 TiB 3.7 GiB 100 GiB 13 TiB 74.69 1.00 - host s3db10
>> >> >>>>> 63 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.5 TiB 5.5 TiB 616 MiB 14 GiB 1.7 TiB 76.04 1.02 92 up osd.63
>> >> >>>>> 64 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.5 TiB 5.5 TiB 820 MiB 15 GiB 1.8 TiB 75.54 1.01 101 up osd.64
>> >> >>>>> 65 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.3 TiB 5.3 TiB 109 MiB 14 GiB 2.0 TiB 73.17 0.98 105 up osd.65
>> >> >>>>> 66 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.8 TiB 5.8 TiB 423 MiB 15 GiB 1.4 TiB 80.38 1.08 98 up osd.66
>> >> >>>>> 67 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.1 TiB 5.1 TiB 572 MiB 14 GiB 2.2 TiB 70.10 0.94 100 up osd.67
>> >> >>>>> 68 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.3 TiB 5.3 TiB 630 MiB 13 GiB 2.0 TiB 72.88 0.98 107 up osd.68
>> >> >>>>> 70 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.4 TiB 5.4 TiB 648 MiB 14 GiB 1.8 TiB 74.73 1.00 102 up osd.70
>> >> >>>>> -12 50.99052 - 51 TiB 39 TiB 39 TiB 2.9 GiB 99 GiB 12 TiB 77.24 1.04 - host s3db11
>> >> >>>>> 46 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.7 TiB 5.7 TiB 102 MiB 15 GiB 1.5 TiB 78.91 1.06 97 up osd.46
>> >> >>>>> 47 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.2 TiB 5.2 TiB 61 MiB 13 GiB 2.1 TiB 71.47 0.96 96 up osd.47
>> >> >>>>> 48 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 6.1 TiB 6.1 TiB 853 MiB 15 GiB 1.2 TiB 83.46 1.12 109 up osd.48
>> >> >>>>> 49 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.7 TiB 5.7 TiB 708 MiB 15 GiB 1.5 TiB 78.96 1.06 98 up osd.49
>> >> >>>>> 50 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.9 TiB 5.8 TiB 472 MiB 15 GiB 1.4 TiB 80.40 1.08 102 up osd.50
>> >> >>>>> 51 hdd 7.27739 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.9 TiB 5.9 TiB 729 MiB 15 GiB 1.3 TiB 81.70 1.10 110 up osd.51
>> >> >>>>> 72 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 4.8 TiB 4.8 TiB 91 MiB 12 GiB 2.5 TiB 65.82 0.88 89 up osd.72
>> >> >>>>> -37 58.55478 - 59 TiB 46 TiB 46 TiB 5.0 GiB 124 GiB 12 TiB 79.04 1.06 - host s3db12
>> >> >>>>> 19 hdd 3.68750 1.00000 3.7 TiB 3.1 TiB 3.1 TiB 462 MiB 8.2 GiB 559 GiB 85.18 1.14 55 up osd.19
>> >> >>>>> 71 hdd 3.68750 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.9 TiB 2.8 TiB 3.9 MiB 7.8 GiB 825 GiB 78.14 1.05 50 up osd.71
>> >> >>>>> 75 hdd 3.68750 1.00000 3.7 TiB 3.1 TiB 3.1 TiB 576 MiB 8.3 GiB 555 GiB 85.29 1.14 57 up osd.75
>> >> >>>>> 76 hdd 3.68750 1.00000 3.7 TiB 3.2 TiB 3.1 TiB 239 MiB 9.3 GiB 501 GiB 86.73 1.16 50 up osd.76
>> >> >>>>> 77 hdd 14.60159 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 880 MiB 30 GiB 3.6 TiB 75.57 1.01 202 up osd.77
>> >> >>>>> 78 hdd 14.60159 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 1.0 GiB 30 GiB 3.4 TiB 76.65 1.03 196 up osd.78
>> >> >>>>> 83 hdd 14.60159 1.00000 15 TiB 12 TiB 12 TiB 1.8 GiB 31 GiB 2.9 TiB 80.04 1.07 223 up osd.83
>> >> >>>>> -3 58.49872 - 58 TiB 43 TiB 38 TiB 8.1 GiB 91 GiB 16 TiB 73.15 0.98 - host s3db2
>> >> >>>>> 1 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 3.1 GiB 38 GiB 3.6 TiB 75.52 1.01 194 up osd.1
>> >> >>>>> 3 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.2 TiB 1.4 TiB 418 MiB 0 B 1.4 TiB 60.94 0.82 52 up osd.3
>> >> >>>>> 4 hdd 3.63689 0.89999 3.6 TiB 3.2 TiB 401 GiB 845 MiB 0 B 401 GiB 89.23 1.20 53 up osd.4
>> >> >>>>> 5 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.3 TiB 1.3 TiB 437 MiB 0 B 1.3 TiB 62.88 0.84 51 up osd.5
>> >> >>>>> 6 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.0 TiB 1.7 TiB 1.8 GiB 0 B 1.7 TiB 54.51 0.73 47 up osd.6
>> >> >>>>> 7 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 493 MiB 26 GiB 3.8 TiB 73.90 0.99 185 up osd.7
>> >> >>>>> 74 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 1.1 GiB 27 GiB 3.5 TiB 76.27 1.02 208 up osd.74
>> >> >>>>> -4 58.49872 - 58 TiB 43 TiB 37 TiB 33 GiB 86 GiB 15 TiB 74.05 0.99 - host s3db3
>> >> >>>>> 2 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 850 MiB 26 GiB 4.0 TiB 72.78 0.98 203 up osd.2
>> >> >>>>> 9 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 8.3 GiB 33 GiB 3.6 TiB 75.62 1.01 189 up osd.9
>> >> >>>>> 10 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 663 MiB 28 GiB 3.5 TiB 76.34 1.02 211 up osd.10
>> >> >>>>> 12 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.4 TiB 1.2 TiB 633 MiB 0 B 1.2 TiB 66.22 0.89 44 up osd.12
>> >> >>>>> 13 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.9 TiB 720 GiB 2.3 GiB 0 B 720 GiB 80.66 1.08 66 up osd.13
>> >> >>>>> 14 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 3.1 TiB 552 GiB 18 GiB 0 B 552 GiB 85.18 1.14 60 up osd.14
>> >> >>>>> 15 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.0 TiB 1.7 TiB 2.1 GiB 0 B 1.7 TiB 53.72 0.72 44 up osd.15
>> >> >>>>> -5 58.49872 - 58 TiB 45 TiB 37 TiB 7.2 GiB 99 GiB 14 TiB 76.37 1.02 - host s3db4
>> >> >>>>> 11 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 12 TiB 12 TiB 897 MiB 28 GiB 2.8 TiB 81.15 1.09 205 up osd.11
>> >> >>>>> 17 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 1.2 GiB 27 GiB 3.6 TiB 75.38 1.01 211 up osd.17
>> >> >>>>> 18 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 965 MiB 44 GiB 4.0 TiB 72.86 0.98 188 up osd.18
>> >> >>>>> 20 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.9 TiB 796 GiB 529 MiB 0 B 796 GiB 78.63 1.05 66 up osd.20
>> >> >>>>> 21 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.6 TiB 1.1 TiB 2.1 GiB 0 B 1.1 TiB 70.32 0.94 47 up osd.21
>> >> >>>>> 22 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.9 TiB 802 GiB 882 MiB 0 B 802 GiB 78.47 1.05 58 up osd.22
>> >> >>>>> 24 hdd 3.63689 1.00000 3.6 TiB 2.8 TiB 856 GiB 645 MiB 0 B 856 GiB 77.01 1.03 47 up osd.24
>> >> >>>>> -6 58.89636 - 59 TiB 44 TiB 44 TiB 2.4 GiB 111 GiB 15 TiB 75.22 1.01 - host s3db5
>> >> >>>>> 0 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.4 TiB 2.3 TiB 70 MiB 6.6 GiB 1.3 TiB 65.00 0.87 48 up osd.0
>> >> >>>>> 25 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.4 TiB 2.3 TiB 5.3 MiB 6.6 GiB 1.4 TiB 63.86 0.86 41 up osd.25
>> >> >>>>> 26 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.9 TiB 2.8 TiB 181 MiB 7.6 GiB 862 GiB 77.47 1.04 48 up osd.26
>> >> >>>>> 27 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.3 TiB 2.2 TiB 7.0 MiB 6.1 GiB 1.5 TiB 61.00 0.82 48 up osd.27
>> >> >>>>> 28 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 12 TiB 12 TiB 937 MiB 30 GiB 2.8 TiB 81.19 1.09 203 up osd.28
>> >> >>>>> 29 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 536 MiB 26 GiB 3.8 TiB 73.95 0.99 200 up osd.29
>> >> >>>>> 30 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 12 TiB 11 TiB 744 MiB 28 GiB 3.1 TiB 79.07 1.06 207 up osd.30
>> >> >>>>> -7 58.89636 - 59 TiB 44 TiB 44 TiB 14 GiB 122 GiB 14 TiB 75.41 1.01 - host s3db6
>> >> >>>>> 32 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 3.1 TiB 3.0 TiB 16 MiB 8.2 GiB 622 GiB 83.74 1.12 65 up osd.32
>> >> >>>>> 33 hdd 3.73630 0.79999 3.7 TiB 3.0 TiB 2.9 TiB 14 MiB 8.1 GiB 740 GiB 80.67 1.08 52 up osd.33
>> >> >>>>> 34 hdd 3.73630 0.79999 3.7 TiB 2.9 TiB 2.8 TiB 449 MiB 7.7 GiB 877 GiB 77.08 1.03 52 up osd.34
>> >> >>>>> 35 hdd 3.73630 0.79999 3.7 TiB 2.3 TiB 2.2 TiB 133 MiB 7.0 GiB 1.4 TiB 62.18 0.83 42 up osd.35
>> >> >>>>> 36 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 544 MiB 26 GiB 4.0 TiB 72.98 0.98 220 up osd.36
>> >> >>>>> 37 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 11 GiB 38 GiB 3.6 TiB 75.30 1.01 200 up osd.37
>> >> >>>>> 38 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 11 TiB 11 TiB 1.2 GiB 28 GiB 3.3 TiB 77.43 1.04 217 up osd.38
>> >> >>>>> -8 58.89636 - 59 TiB 47 TiB 46 TiB 3.9 GiB 116 GiB 12 TiB 78.98 1.06 - host s3db7
>> >> >>>>> 39 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 3.2 TiB 3.2 TiB 19 MiB 8.5 GiB 499 GiB 86.96 1.17 43 up osd.39
>> >> >>>>> 40 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.6 TiB 2.5 TiB 144 MiB 7.0 GiB 1.2 TiB 68.33 0.92 39 up osd.40
>> >> >>>>> 41 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 3.0 TiB 2.9 TiB 218 MiB 7.9 GiB 732 GiB 80.86 1.08 64 up osd.41
>> >> >>>>> 42 hdd 3.73630 1.00000 3.7 TiB 2.5 TiB 2.4 TiB 594 MiB 7.0 GiB 1.2 TiB 67.97 0.91 50 up osd.42
>> >> >>>>> 43 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 12 TiB 12 TiB 564 MiB 28 GiB 2.9 TiB 80.32 1.08 213 up osd.43
>> >> >>>>> 44 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 12 TiB 11 TiB 1.3 GiB 28 GiB 3.1 TiB 78.59 1.05 198 up osd.44
>> >> >>>>> 45 hdd 14.65039 1.00000 15 TiB 12 TiB 12 TiB 1.2 GiB 30 GiB 2.8 TiB 81.05 1.09 214 up osd.45
>> >> >>>>> -9 51.28331 - 51 TiB 41 TiB 41 TiB 4.9 GiB 108 GiB 10 TiB 79.75 1.07 - host s3db8
>> >> >>>>> 8 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.8 TiB 5.8 TiB 472 MiB 15 GiB 1.5 TiB 79.68 1.07 99 up osd.8
>> >> >>>>> 16 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.9 TiB 5.8 TiB 785 MiB 15 GiB 1.4 TiB 80.25 1.08 97 up osd.16
>> >> >>>>> 31 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.5 TiB 5.5 TiB 438 MiB 14 GiB 1.8 TiB 75.36 1.01 87 up osd.31
>> >> >>>>> 52 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.7 TiB 5.7 TiB 844 MiB 15 GiB 1.6 TiB 78.19 1.05 113 up osd.52
>> >> >>>>> 53 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 6.2 TiB 6.1 TiB 792 MiB 18 GiB 1.1 TiB 84.46 1.13 109 up osd.53
>> >> >>>>> 54 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.6 TiB 5.6 TiB 959 MiB 15 GiB 1.7 TiB 76.73 1.03 115 up osd.54
>> >> >>>>> 55 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 6.1 TiB 6.1 TiB 699 MiB 16 GiB 1.2 TiB 83.56 1.12 122 up osd.55
>> >> >>>>> -10 51.28331 - 51 TiB 39 TiB 39 TiB 4.7 GiB 100 GiB 12 TiB 76.05 1.02 - host s3db9
>> >> >>>>> 56 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.2 TiB 5.2 TiB 840 MiB 13 GiB 2.1 TiB 71.06 0.95 105 up osd.56
>> >> >>>>> 57 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 6.1 TiB 6.0 TiB 1.0 GiB 16 GiB 1.2 TiB 83.17 1.12 102 up osd.57
>> >> >>>>> 58 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 6.0 TiB 5.9 TiB 43 MiB 15 GiB 1.4 TiB 81.56 1.09 105 up osd.58
>> >> >>>>> 59 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.9 TiB 5.9 TiB 429 MiB 15 GiB 1.4 TiB 80.64 1.08 94 up osd.59
>> >> >>>>> 60 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.4 TiB 5.3 TiB 226 MiB 14 GiB 2.0 TiB 73.25 0.98 101 up osd.60
>> >> >>>>> 61 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 4.8 TiB 4.8 TiB 1.1 GiB 12 GiB 2.5 TiB 65.84 0.88 103 up osd.61
>> >> >>>>> 62 hdd 7.32619 1.00000 7.3 TiB 5.6 TiB 5.6 TiB 1.0 GiB 15 GiB 1.7 TiB 76.83 1.03 126 up osd.62
>> >> >>>>> TOTAL 674 TiB 501 TiB 473 TiB 96 GiB 1.2 TiB 173 TiB 74.57
>> >> >>>>> MIN/MAX VAR: 0.17/1.20 STDDEV: 10.25
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Am Sa., 13. März 2021 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb Dan van der Ster <dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> No, increasing num PGs won't help substantially.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Can you share the entire output of ceph osd df tree ?
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Did you already set
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> ceph config set mgr mgr/balancer/upmap_max_deviation 1
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> ??
>> >> >>>>>> And I recommend debug_mgr 4/5 so you can see some basic upmap balancer logging.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> .. Dan
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> On Sat, Mar 13, 2021, 3:49 PM Boris Behrens <bb@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> Hello people,
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> I am still struggeling with the balancer
>> >> >>>>>>> (https://www.mail-archive.com/ceph-users@xxxxxxx/msg09124.html)
>> >> >>>>>>> Now I've read some more and might think that I do not have enough PGs.
>> >> >>>>>>> Currently I have 84OSDs and 1024PGs for the main pool (3008 total). I
>> >> >>>>>>> have the autoscaler enabled, but I doesn't tell me to increase the
>> >> >>>>>>> PGs.
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> What do you think?
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> --
>> >> >>>>>>> Die Selbsthilfegruppe "UTF-8-Probleme" trifft sich diesmal abweichend
>> >> >>>>>>> im groüen Saal.
>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>>>>> ceph-users mailing list -- ceph-users@xxxxxxx
>> >> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to ceph-users-leave@xxxxxxx
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> --
>> >> >>>>> Die Selbsthilfegruppe "UTF-8-Probleme" trifft sich diesmal abweichend im groüen Saal.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> Die Selbsthilfegruppe "UTF-8-Probleme" trifft sich diesmal abweichend im groüen Saal.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Die Selbsthilfegruppe "UTF-8-Probleme" trifft sich diesmal abweichend im groüen Saal.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Die Selbsthilfegruppe "UTF-8-Probleme" trifft sich diesmal abweichend im groüen Saal.
>
>
>
> --
> Die Selbsthilfegruppe "UTF-8-Probleme" trifft sich diesmal abweichend im groüen Saal.
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