On Wed, October 1, 2014 8:05 am, David Both wrote:
> I have been following this - and other discussions here and elsewhere -
> and I
> have some mixed feelings about what is happening.
>
> I started with Linux at about Red Hat 5.2 in 1997 or so. I was looking to
> move
> away from OS/2 as I could see it was dying at that point but I had no
> desire to
> learn anything about (my opinion) that piece of crap many call WinBloze.
> There
> were no classes on Linux and almost no books. So I taught myself using
> what was
> available, usually with the aid of the few books that were extant then and
> a
> couple local people who were more advanced than I. This was before I
> realized
> that, in Gnu/Linux and Unix, ANYTHING can be done and all I have to do is
> find
> the right command(s) to make it happen. Not that I don't need a bit of a
> nudge
> now and then.
>
> <rant>
>
> But that assistance was almost always in the form of me asking a question
> about
> how to do something and a response that I should check out a particular
> resource
> or simply the name of a command to look up. No one ever EVER gave me a
> complete
> command or script that would solve my problem. Nor did I want them to.
>
> I always learn best by doing things, exploring and experimenting. Most
> people I
> have taught in my own classes as well as Red Hat training and IBM classes
> I have
> taught over the years are the same way. At least those who students who
> actually
> "get it."
>
> I believe that it is important to help those who are just beginning the
> long
> road towards being a "real" sysadmin, however you might define that. But I
> also
> believe that giving little nudges in the right direction and letting them
> figure
> out the rest is ALWAYS the best way to help them learn.
>
> I also think that too many people just starting with Linux are still
> thinking
> along the lines of WinBloze and don't even know about the Unix/Linux
> Philosophy.
> Learning and keeping that philosophy in mind can go a long way towards
> helping
> solve any problem and understanding any part of Gnu/Linux.
>
> The attitude of many new to Linux and unfamiliar with the philosophy seems
> to be
> that they just want a specific map to follow, a set of steps or a formula
> with
> no variables to follow to solve every problem. Well that is NOT the Linux
> way.
> Nor can it ever be. This attitude is typical of WinBloze admins, IT and
> project
> managers as well as MBA's who have no real understanding of the underlying
> technologies they "manage." Admins coming out of other environments need
> to
> realize that computers and operating systems - especially "real" ones like
> Linux
> - are complex and there is no one way to do anything nor is there one
> single
> answer to most questions. Learning how things work is important.
>
> There is a great deal of really good information on the Internet that can
> help
> almost anyone looking to learn or to resolve a particular problem. There
> is also
> an unbelievable amount of garbage out there that is incomplete or just
> plain
> wrong and that can be very frustrating to anyone wishing to learn. Sorting
> through it and deciding which is which can be nearly impossible,
> especially for
> a newcomer.
>
> I have also been very frustrated by the poorly written and allegedly
> "free" crap
> some people peddle on places like LinkedIn and hope that very few actually
> use
> them. These documents can make learning the reality of Linux daunting and
> probably cause many to give up and stay with what they know.
>
> Perhaps some questions get asked here because people are so frustrated
> with the
> huge amounts of bad data that they want to come to the source first and
> not
> waste time experimenting their way through the garbage. I always keep a
> set of
> VMs available for experimentation, but not everyone has a VM or
> non-critical
> hardware available for experimentation.
>
> It can also be important to understand why a question is being asked. Is
> this
> person trying to write a book? Fix a problem? Just understand how it
> works?
>
> As for job titles, most are ridiculous anyway. As owner of my own business
> I
> have given myself a couple titles including "President," "Lead Trainer"
> and
> "Senior Consultant." The adjectives "senior" and "lead" are meaningless in
> reality because I am a one person shop. But they imply things to the
> people to
> whom I try to sell my services.
>
> I once worked for a large bank that had literally hundreds of "vice
> presidents."
> The only qualification was to contribute to the bank's political PAC.
>
> </rant>
>
> So, though I mostly lurk and learn, I think it important to point people
> in the
> right direction without doing their jobs for them.
>
> And I also enjoy a good discussion, however heated. ;-)
>
I have used Linux (RedHat mostly but others too) for at least a decade and
a half too. I agree, there often is really little documentation. But I
would say reading man pages (and re-reading them several times) was not
only last resort but very often close to comprehensive information you
need on a command. There were often nice "HWOTO"s, the one about xfs comes
to mind, "linux on steroids" was its title.
As far as *nix (|based) system documentation is concerned I would like to
mention here _my_ comparison. On the best side is FreeBSD Handbook (found
on their website). You can follow it to do almost anything. On the worst
side (of what I've tried to use) is MacOS Server "documentation". It is
bloated in size to about FreeBSD Handbook if not larger. Tons of pictures.
Consists almost to 100% of the following constructs: "Go there, click
this, check that box, click next... You are done". And if before "you are
done" you get any error, you are dead and there is no way to troubleshoot
what is wrong, or get clues from this "documentation". I would put the
documentation RedHat has for RHEL 7 right in the middle between FreeBSD
Handbook and MacOS Server "documentation".
Just my little rant ;-(
Valeri
>
>
> On 10/01/2014 07:11 AM, Kai Schaetzl wrote:
>> Digimer wrote on Tue, 30 Sep 2014 17:18:17 -0400:
>>
>>> I think it would be really good if everyone took a step back, took a
>>> deep breath, and relaxed. This thread has generated a surprisingly (and
>>> to me baffling) amount of negativity.
>> I don't know how long you have been on this list, but it's a really
>> friendly place. Has been, still is. To get a response like the one in
>> this
>> thread you have to "earn" it. In this case it's obvious that the OP is
>> of
>> that "please do my homework for me" type and didn't do any research of
>> his
>> own other than finding out there is something different. This is not
>> friendly to the list and it's not good enough for a "senior" consultant.
>> Ned's response was appropriate and actually quite friendly.
>>
>> Kai
>>
>>
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>> --
>>
>>
>> *********************************************************
>> David P. Both, RHCE
>> Millennium Technology Consulting LLC
>> Raleigh, NC, USA
>> 919-389-8678
>>
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>>
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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