Yes, I totally agree with this. -- Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs. Email: r.d.t.prater@xxxxxxxxx Long days and pleasant nights! Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> writes: > My only concern with this argument is that it seems like it takes > longer to get fixes pushed up stream then it does to spin up a custom > distribution. It also seems to me that a lot of what's needed in a > custom distribution is packaging and customization as opposed to > programming. > > I look at Vinux and Ubuntu as an example. It seems like Luke and the > Vinux developers were able to get a lot more accomplished in a lot > less time working with Vinux then they were able to do by trying to > push things upstream in Ubuntu. Focusing on getting changes upstream, > when there could have been a Vinux available, would have meant fewer > blind Linux users and some of those blind Linux users would have spent > more of their own time setting up and customizing Ubuntu and finding > and installing accessible applications. If you think vinux users are > going to just quit and give up when they run into a Linux issue, I'd > think that problem would be even more prevalent if they didn't have a > Vinux where a lot of the work was already done for them. > > IMHO, I think a hybrid approach is the way to go. Build a custom > distribution, prove that it can work, build up your blind user base > and work to get those changes upstream. I know it seems like this is > spreading an already thin resource even thinner, but I think it's the > most likely road to success. > > I also think that custom distributions is just part of the Linux > ecosystem. How many custom distributions are there out there to > satisfy every niche? I don't think this should be any different for > the blind Linux user. > > > > > > On 21/04/17 05:53, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: >> I'm changing the subject for clarity. >> >> On 4/18/2017 7:28 AM, John G Heim wrote: >>> I look at the debate over whether it is better to have a distro for the >>> blind or to work on improving mainstream distros like the debate over >>> barley >>> versus wheat beers. Personally, I prefer barley beers over any and all >>> wheat >>> beers. But if someone wants to brew a wheat beer, it's fine with me >>> and I'd >>> even help out if they asked. It's a matter of good and better. In other >>> words, my opinion is that even if you think it would be better if these >>> developers spent their time on mainstream distros, we should all still >>> recognize that what they are doing is really helpful. Don't let the >>> perfect >>> be the enemy of the good. >> >> >> In principle, I agree. There will always be people who want specialized >> technology such as Braille notetakers and those who expect commercial >> technology like smartphones to work for them. However, we're talking >> about a very small user base here and even fewer developers. Taking >> myself, I'm not a developer but I consider myself an advanced user. I >> wouldn't even try to develop a distro. A talking rescue CD was hard >> enough. As I said previously, anyone can have their pet distro. If >> someone wants a special distro for the blind, go for it! The problem I >> have and the reason why I feel so strongly is because of the lack of >> qualified and blind developers. >> >> In other words, very few developers are blind and very few sighted >> developers know how to meet the needs of the blind. By investing the >> very limited resources of those few developers into a special distro >> used by only a very small user base, other mainstream distros lose out >> and the greater blind community doesn't benefit. As I said in my >> original mail, rather than hacking Fedora or whatever into shape, work >> with the upstream Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian etc developers. By educating a >> few, those limited resources go much further. Now, many of the sighted >> Debian developers ask if something breaks accessibility, are eager to >> fix bugs and go out of their way to make an accessible installer. The >> same can be said for Ubuntu. I found their MATE installer works fine >> with Orca and allowed me to install independently. >> >> As already mentioned, Talking Arch, Sonar, Vinux and Oralux all either >> crashed or gave me no sound. Not to pick on Talking Arch, but with only >> two developers working on it, it's impossible to fix bugs in a timely >> manner (their bug tracker wasn't obviously linked on talkingarch.tk at >> the time) and test lots of hardware. With Ubuntu, they have a huge list >> of already tested hardware known to work. Yes, Canonical is commercial >> as is Red Hat, but essentially we have the sighted community working for >> us. When someone tests a laptop and finds it crashes, they report a bug >> and the upstream developers fix it. When a blind person tries Vinux on >> that same hardware and it crashes, they usually give up and say Linux is >> crap. Even if they report it, again, with the very limited resources, >> it's impossible to fix. All the Talking Arch (or Arch upstream) >> developers would have to do in my case is import the fix for my sound >> card from Debian where it was fixed years ago because lots of other >> people already reported it and the ALSA upstream developers fixed it >> which was picked up by Debian and Ubuntu. Before Speakup was in staging, >> almost no major distros supported it. Debian and Slackware were the only >> major distros to offer modules compiled with the kernel. That meant that >> Debian derivatives had Speakup if they used the Debian kernel. I recall >> seeing Speakup in Ubuntu, but serial support was broken so it didn't >> matter. >> >> To bring this back full circle, if we had hundreds of blind developers >> like we have in Windows or on the Mac, i would totally agree with you >> and say if we want a blind-centric distro, it could help those few >> people who need or want it. However, we don't. It's like water in the >> desert. Every drop counts and is precious. What all of us really need to >> do is recruit more blind developers. That's why I say it would be far >> better for the Vinux Sonar organization to focus on working with other >> distros and upstream vendors rather than essentially reinventing the >> wheel. The difference with NVDA is it does run on Windows and has >> probably thousands more users. I would still like to see an actual >> development team for Orca rather than only a single paid developer. When >> she goes on vacation, Orca development stops. Oh yeah, she writes the >> docs and moderates the mailing list too. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Blinux-list mailing list >> Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list _______________________________________________ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list