My only concern with this argument is that it seems like it takes longer
to get fixes pushed up stream then it does to spin up a custom
distribution. It also seems to me that a lot of what's needed in a
custom distribution is packaging and customization as opposed to
programming.
I look at Vinux and Ubuntu as an example. It seems like Luke and the
Vinux developers were able to get a lot more accomplished in a lot less
time working with Vinux then they were able to do by trying to push
things upstream in Ubuntu. Focusing on getting changes upstream, when
there could have been a Vinux available, would have meant fewer blind
Linux users and some of those blind Linux users would have spent more of
their own time setting up and customizing Ubuntu and finding and
installing accessible applications. If you think vinux users are going
to just quit and give up when they run into a Linux issue, I'd think
that problem would be even more prevalent if they didn't have a Vinux
where a lot of the work was already done for them.
IMHO, I think a hybrid approach is the way to go. Build a custom
distribution, prove that it can work, build up your blind user base and
work to get those changes upstream. I know it seems like this is
spreading an already thin resource even thinner, but I think it's the
most likely road to success.
I also think that custom distributions is just part of the Linux
ecosystem. How many custom distributions are there out there to satisfy
every niche? I don't think this should be any different for the blind
Linux user.
On 21/04/17 05:53, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
I'm changing the subject for clarity.
On 4/18/2017 7:28 AM, John G Heim wrote:
I look at the debate over whether it is better to have a distro for the
blind or to work on improving mainstream distros like the debate over
barley
versus wheat beers. Personally, I prefer barley beers over any and all
wheat
beers. But if someone wants to brew a wheat beer, it's fine with me
and I'd
even help out if they asked. It's a matter of good and better. In other
words, my opinion is that even if you think it would be better if these
developers spent their time on mainstream distros, we should all still
recognize that what they are doing is really helpful. Don't let the
perfect
be the enemy of the good.
In principle, I agree. There will always be people who want specialized
technology such as Braille notetakers and those who expect commercial
technology like smartphones to work for them. However, we're talking
about a very small user base here and even fewer developers. Taking
myself, I'm not a developer but I consider myself an advanced user. I
wouldn't even try to develop a distro. A talking rescue CD was hard
enough. As I said previously, anyone can have their pet distro. If
someone wants a special distro for the blind, go for it! The problem I
have and the reason why I feel so strongly is because of the lack of
qualified and blind developers.
In other words, very few developers are blind and very few sighted
developers know how to meet the needs of the blind. By investing the
very limited resources of those few developers into a special distro
used by only a very small user base, other mainstream distros lose out
and the greater blind community doesn't benefit. As I said in my
original mail, rather than hacking Fedora or whatever into shape, work
with the upstream Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian etc developers. By educating a
few, those limited resources go much further. Now, many of the sighted
Debian developers ask if something breaks accessibility, are eager to
fix bugs and go out of their way to make an accessible installer. The
same can be said for Ubuntu. I found their MATE installer works fine
with Orca and allowed me to install independently.
As already mentioned, Talking Arch, Sonar, Vinux and Oralux all either
crashed or gave me no sound. Not to pick on Talking Arch, but with only
two developers working on it, it's impossible to fix bugs in a timely
manner (their bug tracker wasn't obviously linked on talkingarch.tk at
the time) and test lots of hardware. With Ubuntu, they have a huge list
of already tested hardware known to work. Yes, Canonical is commercial
as is Red Hat, but essentially we have the sighted community working for
us. When someone tests a laptop and finds it crashes, they report a bug
and the upstream developers fix it. When a blind person tries Vinux on
that same hardware and it crashes, they usually give up and say Linux is
crap. Even if they report it, again, with the very limited resources,
it's impossible to fix. All the Talking Arch (or Arch upstream)
developers would have to do in my case is import the fix for my sound
card from Debian where it was fixed years ago because lots of other
people already reported it and the ALSA upstream developers fixed it
which was picked up by Debian and Ubuntu. Before Speakup was in staging,
almost no major distros supported it. Debian and Slackware were the only
major distros to offer modules compiled with the kernel. That meant that
Debian derivatives had Speakup if they used the Debian kernel. I recall
seeing Speakup in Ubuntu, but serial support was broken so it didn't
matter.
To bring this back full circle, if we had hundreds of blind developers
like we have in Windows or on the Mac, i would totally agree with you
and say if we want a blind-centric distro, it could help those few
people who need or want it. However, we don't. It's like water in the
desert. Every drop counts and is precious. What all of us really need to
do is recruit more blind developers. That's why I say it would be far
better for the Vinux Sonar organization to focus on working with other
distros and upstream vendors rather than essentially reinventing the
wheel. The difference with NVDA is it does run on Windows and has
probably thousands more users. I would still like to see an actual
development team for Orca rather than only a single paid developer. When
she goes on vacation, Orca development stops. Oh yeah, she writes the
docs and moderates the mailing list too.
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Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
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