On Mar 16, 2017, at 8:39 AM, John G Heim wrote:
It's funny you should say it's long overdue for there to be a > > > > > blindness related non-profit. I was part of a group who created > > > > > exactly that several years ago. After much discussion, we called > > > > > ourselves The International Association Of Visually Impaired > > > > > Technologists or IAVIT. See www.iavit.org.
After creating the non-profit, the real problem has been lack of > > > > > interest in using it's resources. We are incorporated as a 501c3 > > > > > in the USA so we can legally accept donations. We have a lawyer, > > > > > a bank account, a paypal account at the non-profit rates, > > > > > donated server space, etc. The entire infrastructure is there. > > > > > We're just waiting for people to say, "Hey, I could use this or > > > > > that."
On 03/16/2017 07:53 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:
Be warned that my comments are most likely unpopular and > > > > > > controversial.
See below. I'm not really interested in discussing this > > > > > > further, so
don't expect a response.
On 3/15/2017 3:30 AM, Kyle wrote:
Sonar merges with the Vinux Project.
Well, this is indeed unfortunate. First, it was never said > > > > > > what "common
goals" were discussed. Granted I don't closely follow either > > > > > > project,
but I'm disappointed and surprised to see Vinux heading > > > > > > towards a Fedora
base. Red Hat has stated many, even numerous times, both in > > > > > > their
inaction and in published docs on their sites, that they have > > > > > > no or very
little interest in core accessibility. Yes, I realize this > > > > > > list is
hosted by Red Hat, but honestly, anyone can host a mailing > > > > > > list
nowadays, so to me, that doesn't count. Look at groups.io, > > > > > > Yahoo Groups,
etc. Unlike Debian, Ubuntu and Slackware, to the best of my > > > > > > knowledge,
Fedora has never made their installer accessible out of the > > > > > > box. I
understand that now their installer talks with Orca, but I > > > > > > think that's
more by accident than anything. Fedora does claim to have > > > > > > accessibility
with the Gnome desktop though, but I don't think one can > > > > > > easily use
Speakup and a text console to do the install. I could very > > > > > > well be wrong
on this as I quit following Fedora years ago for the above > > > > > > reasons.
There were projects like Speakup Modified (now dead I think), > > > > > > but they
were community projects with no support from Fedora > > > > > > developers.
Presumably, since Sonar is being folded in, they will use a > > > > > > distro other
than Fedora. In the long term, I think Fedora would be a very > > > > > > bad idea
for many reasons which I won't go into here.
I think it's a great idea for there to be an a11y, or even
blindness-specific nonprofit to be formed. I would even say > > > > > > it's very
long overdue. If Apache, Mozilla, the Linux kernel and many > > > > > > others can
do it, there is no reason why the blind community can't. I > > > > > > would even
suggest moving this and other Linux lists to that > > > > > > organization. Yes, I
realize that nonprofit and not-for-profit are different. I > > > > > > would push to
make it a U.S based nonprofit. Start a Kickstarter or other > > > > > > fundraising
compaign. I would donate to it. As much as Facebook doesn't > > > > > > support
accessibility and generally is against the open source spirit, > > > > > > a page on
there, Twitter, Tumblr, etc would be a very good idea. There > > > > > > needs to be
a strong publicity team to write articles for both the > > > > > > blindness
magazines (ACB Braille Forum, etc) and the mainstream Linux > > > > > > magazines
like LWN. Amazingly, there has been almost no mention of > > > > > > Speakup in the
mainstream Linux community at all. I think a fair number of > > > > > > companies
and developers don't take us seriously because they don't know > > > > > > we exist
and that blind people not only can and do use computers but in > > > > > > fact can
and do use Linux on a regular basis. I just got an email from > > > > > > someone
asking if I'm blind, how do I read and write? There is still a > > > > > > huge
amount of ignorance out there. I realize this isn't strictly a > > > > > > Linux
accessibility issue, but what leads to the next great > > > > > > breakthrough might
be started by a developer seeing that blind people want an > > > > > > accessible
desktop like everyone else. With an actual organization, KDE > > > > > > could be
pushed for accessibility and developers from the organization > > > > > > could
help. In other words, not only does it need to be a nonprofit > > > > > > a11y
organization who works with other developers and develops > > > > > > software, but
it also needs to be an advocacy and lobbyist group to demand > > > > > > big and
small companies make their software accessible.
However, I see a huge flaw in the merger. I think we're going > > > > > > down the
same path as Windows screen readers. I'm not saying that Vinux > > > > > > would go
commercial. What I'm saying is I fear they would end up like a > > > > > > big
company who shall remain nameless. There are other screen > > > > > > readers out
there such as NVDA, but very few people take them seriously > > > > > > because this
big company has almost a monopoly. Granted, Linux is still far > > > > > > from
having a huge share of the market, but if it should reach the > > > > > > 90% or
even 50% point some day, it would be very unfortunate for > > > > > > rehab agencies
and employers to force people to use Vinux because that's the > > > > > > only
specialized distro for the blind. What would be much better is > > > > > > to work
with the mainstream distros like Debian and Ubuntu to fix > > > > > > accessibility
problems. Ubuntu is the most popular distro on the desktop. > > > > > > While
accessibility is good, it has problems. When 16.04 came out, > > > > > > Orca was
broken. I believe there are only a small number (no more than > > > > > > a few)
people on the accessibility team. Debian could also > > > > > > desperately use
help. It would look much better for the blind community if an
organization donated their time and talents to auditing the > > > > > > packages in
Debian and either fixing those with accessibility bugs which > > > > > > could
easily be fixed or working with the upstream developers, > > > > > > providing
patches and consulting with them to make their packages more > > > > > > accessible.
To me, it seems like a huge waste of time to put a ton of > > > > > > energy into
beating Fedora, Ubuntu or whatever distro into submission and > > > > > > slapping a
"Vinux" or "Sonar" label on it when that same upstream distro > > > > > > with very
few tweaks could be made that way out of the box. If you > > > > > > absolutely must
modify packages, desktop settings, etc from the upstream > > > > > > defaults, such
as for low vision users, create a Vinux repository instead or > > > > > > work with
the Ubuntu community to create an official Ubuntu flavor > > > > > > called Ubuntu
VI or something. There is already a Ubuntu MATE flavor, so why > > > > > > not work
with them directly? While we're at it, what about Orca? I see > > > > > > only one
main paid developer working on it. I'm sure she could use some > > > > > > help, not
to mention thorough testing. Getting back to the Windows > > > > > > screen readers,
I fear that blind people will not be given the choice of what > > > > > > distro
they want and will be locked out of mainstream use because > > > > > > there is
primarily one Vinux to rule them all.
In conclusion, I will continue not recommending any > > > > > > specialized distro
to my clients and other people. I think they are almost always > > > > > > a
mistake. As we have seen yet again, it does lead to > > > > > > fragmentation and
generally bad luck for all concerned. I couldn't get any of > > > > > > them (Sonar,
Vinux or Talking Arch) to work reliably on my 2009 machine > > > > > > which runs XP
great and has a very old, well-supported standard sound card. > > > > > > I had to
invent my own live / rescue CD because there wasn't anything > > > > > > reliable.
Hopefully the official Debian rescue CD will have reliable > > > > > > speech soon.
Something like a Vinux rescue CD would be a great idea, but > > > > > > not a live
system with an unreliable graphical desktop, horrible speech > > > > > > (ESpeak)
and an unreliable infrastructure which crashes for no obvious > > > > > > reason
while the mainstream Debian and Ubuntu distros don't. All of > > > > > > that said,
I wish both teams the best of luck and I guess we'll see what > > > > > > happens. I
would only add that if you haven't taken the plunge and > > > > > > actually tried
Linux, give Ubuntu MATE a try. It's fast, works well and can > > > > > > be
installed independently by the blind in about an hour. It > > > > > > does,
unfortunately, still use ESpeak. Getting a commercial company > > > > > > to release
a decent synth as open source would be a great thing for a > > > > > > nonprofit to
do, even if it required buying the rights.
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