ok, can you send me the link with how to do that? I would certainly
appreciate it a lot.
-eric
from the central office of the Technomage Guild, Access technology
Division 6.
On Mar 16, 2017, at 8:30 PM, Kelly Prescott wrote:
> I use BSD all the time.
> I use Qemu to set them up.
> This gives me the text consoles and I can install them and speakup does
> the work.
> I do NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD all that way.
> once they are installed, I just ssh to them.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2017, Eric Oyen wrote:
>
> > that was one of the things I tried. I never could get it to work. Of
> > course, someone may have properly ported it since I last tried some 4
> > years ago.
> >
> > the only thing severely lacking in OpenBSD is braille/speech support
> > in the installation. I mean, seriously, its a text based console
> > environment so it should be rather easy to do, but getting Theo to see
> > that is like pulling Teeth!
> >
> > oh well, I will get a little sighted assistance here in the next few
> > days and get an image setup under vmware. then I can get the post
> > config done and actually be able to log into it. at that point, it
> > should be relatively easy to add the ports tree and compile BrlTTY.
> >
> >
> >
> > meanwhile, back to the actual issue at hand…. Does anyone here
> > remember openSuse? I spent more than a year trying to get them to make
> > their product accessible. Their version of Linux had some nice
> > features, but it wouldn't work with any screen readers and there were
> > no packages for such either. I kept asking on their forums and
> > eventually a developer chimed in and stated they had no interest in
> > making their product accessible (claiming too much work, etc. etc.).
> > That was 7 years ago and they are still not accessible. So, it isn't
> > just fedora that has an issue with us.
> >
> > so, my question is this: why is Vinux now merging with SONAR (a Fedora
> > based project) when Fedora is known to have little interest in our
> > needs? I don't know about the rest of you, but it seems to me that we
> > are being treated like the red headed step child here.
> >
> > -eric
> > from the central office of the Technomage Guild, access technology
> > division 6.
> >
> > On Mar 16, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Anders Holmberg wrote:
> >
> > > Hi!
> > > I think you can build brltty for bsd.
> > > But i am not sure.
> > > And that requiers a braille display.
> > > /A
> > > > 16 mars 2017 kl. 21:57 skrev Eric Oyen <eric.oyen@xxxxxxxxxx>:
> > > >
> > > > and now we see the crux of the issue. its called a lack of proper
> > > > attention to the problem.
> > > >
> > > > this is the biggest holdup to a lot of us blind folks, lack of
> > > > coherent information. It's most telling in the local activities
> > > > and events arena, but it shows up in technology as well. SOunds
> > > > like it's time to spread the news on FB, swarm, snap chat,
> > > > twitter, and any other social media outlet we can find. I might
> > > > even point this article at Theo De Raadt of OpenBSD and see if he
> > > > will actually consider it.. It would be nice to have a little
> > > > support from some of the big names behind alternative Operating
> > > > systems (like the BSD ecology or the Linux ecology). In fact, I
> > > > will cc this missive to them. I doubt it will get any sort of
> > > > useful response, but there is no harm in trying.
> > > >
> > > > btw, I was involved in trying to get a screen reader working in
> > > > OpenBSD. It was speakeasy and it failed rather ignominiously.
> > > > Since I am not a coder, I didn't exactly have the tools required
> > > > to properly port it. what I ended up with only partially worked.
> > > > Getting any help from the OpenBSD development corps was a lost
> > > > cause right from the outset. Here it is over 4 years later and I
> > > > have one since given up on ever getting some help from them.
> > > > Perhaps it's time that a bunch of us bug Theo directly. if he gets
> > > > enough emails on the subject, he might reconsider his position.
> > > > His developer email is Theo de Raadt <deraadt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >
> > > > anyway, it also sounds like we need to get everyone else in the
> > > > community of the blind on board with this. that means hitting up
> > > > the various lighthouse organizations, the NFB, the ACB, and the
> > > > AFB as well as the world blind union. SInce I am also on a number
> > > > of technology lists dedicated to blind users and technology
> > > > (including almost all of the mac lists for the blind), it
> > > > shouldn't be that hard to get this information out. perhaps
> > > > partnering up with a few of the bigger blindness blogs wouldn't
> > > > hurt either.
> > > >
> > > > -eric
> > > > from the central office of the Technomage Guild, access technology
> > > > division 6.
> > > >
> > > > On Mar 16, 2017, at 8:39 AM, John G Heim wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > It's funny you should say it's long overdue for there to be a
> > > > > blindness related non-profit. I was part of a group who created
> > > > > exactly that several years ago. After much discussion, we called
> > > > > ourselves The International Association Of Visually Impaired
> > > > > Technologists or IAVIT. See www.iavit.org.
> > > > >
> > > > > After creating the non-profit, the real problem has been lack of
> > > > > interest in using it's resources. We are incorporated as a 501c3
> > > > > in the USA so we can legally accept donations. We have a lawyer,
> > > > > a bank account, a paypal account at the non-profit rates,
> > > > > donated server space, etc. The entire infrastructure is there.
> > > > > We're just waiting for people to say, "Hey, I could use this or
> > > > > that."
> > > > >
> > > > > On 03/16/2017 07:53 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:
> > > > > > Be warned that my comments are most likely unpopular and
> > > > > > controversial.
> > > > > > See below. I'm not really interested in discussing this
> > > > > > further, so
> > > > > > don't expect a response.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 3/15/2017 3:30 AM, Kyle wrote:
> > > > > > > Sonar merges with the Vinux Project.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, this is indeed unfortunate. First, it was never said
> > > > > > what "common
> > > > > > goals" were discussed. Granted I don't closely follow either
> > > > > > project,
> > > > > > but I'm disappointed and surprised to see Vinux heading
> > > > > > towards a Fedora
> > > > > > base. Red Hat has stated many, even numerous times, both in
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > inaction and in published docs on their sites, that they have
> > > > > > no or very
> > > > > > little interest in core accessibility. Yes, I realize this
> > > > > > list is
> > > > > > hosted by Red Hat, but honestly, anyone can host a mailing
> > > > > > list
> > > > > > nowadays, so to me, that doesn't count. Look at groups.io,
> > > > > > Yahoo Groups,
> > > > > > etc. Unlike Debian, Ubuntu and Slackware, to the best of my
> > > > > > knowledge,
> > > > > > Fedora has never made their installer accessible out of the
> > > > > > box. I
> > > > > > understand that now their installer talks with Orca, but I
> > > > > > think that's
> > > > > > more by accident than anything. Fedora does claim to have
> > > > > > accessibility
> > > > > > with the Gnome desktop though, but I don't think one can
> > > > > > easily use
> > > > > > Speakup and a text console to do the install. I could very
> > > > > > well be wrong
> > > > > > on this as I quit following Fedora years ago for the above
> > > > > > reasons.
> > > > > > There were projects like Speakup Modified (now dead I think),
> > > > > > but they
> > > > > > were community projects with no support from Fedora
> > > > > > developers.
> > > > > > Presumably, since Sonar is being folded in, they will use a
> > > > > > distro other
> > > > > > than Fedora. In the long term, I think Fedora would be a very
> > > > > > bad idea
> > > > > > for many reasons which I won't go into here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it's a great idea for there to be an a11y, or even
> > > > > > blindness-specific nonprofit to be formed. I would even say
> > > > > > it's very
> > > > > > long overdue. If Apache, Mozilla, the Linux kernel and many
> > > > > > others can
> > > > > > do it, there is no reason why the blind community can't. I
> > > > > > would even
> > > > > > suggest moving this and other Linux lists to that
> > > > > > organization. Yes, I
> > > > > > realize that nonprofit and not-for-profit are different. I
> > > > > > would push to
> > > > > > make it a U.S based nonprofit. Start a Kickstarter or other
> > > > > > fundraising
> > > > > > compaign. I would donate to it. As much as Facebook doesn't
> > > > > > support
> > > > > > accessibility and generally is against the open source spirit,
> > > > > > a page on
> > > > > > there, Twitter, Tumblr, etc would be a very good idea. There
> > > > > > needs to be
> > > > > > a strong publicity team to write articles for both the
> > > > > > blindness
> > > > > > magazines (ACB Braille Forum, etc) and the mainstream Linux
> > > > > > magazines
> > > > > > like LWN. Amazingly, there has been almost no mention of
> > > > > > Speakup in the
> > > > > > mainstream Linux community at all. I think a fair number of
> > > > > > companies
> > > > > > and developers don't take us seriously because they don't know
> > > > > > we exist
> > > > > > and that blind people not only can and do use computers but in
> > > > > > fact can
> > > > > > and do use Linux on a regular basis. I just got an email from
> > > > > > someone
> > > > > > asking if I'm blind, how do I read and write? There is still a
> > > > > > huge
> > > > > > amount of ignorance out there. I realize this isn't strictly a
> > > > > > Linux
> > > > > > accessibility issue, but what leads to the next great
> > > > > > breakthrough might
> > > > > > be started by a developer seeing that blind people want an
> > > > > > accessible
> > > > > > desktop like everyone else. With an actual organization, KDE
> > > > > > could be
> > > > > > pushed for accessibility and developers from the organization
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > help. In other words, not only does it need to be a nonprofit
> > > > > > a11y
> > > > > > organization who works with other developers and develops
> > > > > > software, but
> > > > > > it also needs to be an advocacy and lobbyist group to demand
> > > > > > big and
> > > > > > small companies make their software accessible.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, I see a huge flaw in the merger. I think we're going
> > > > > > down the
> > > > > > same path as Windows screen readers. I'm not saying that Vinux
> > > > > > would go
> > > > > > commercial. What I'm saying is I fear they would end up like a
> > > > > > big
> > > > > > company who shall remain nameless. There are other screen
> > > > > > readers out
> > > > > > there such as NVDA, but very few people take them seriously
> > > > > > because this
> > > > > > big company has almost a monopoly. Granted, Linux is still far
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > having a huge share of the market, but if it should reach the
> > > > > > 90% or
> > > > > > even 50% point some day, it would be very unfortunate for
> > > > > > rehab agencies
> > > > > > and employers to force people to use Vinux because that's the
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > specialized distro for the blind. What would be much better is
> > > > > > to work
> > > > > > with the mainstream distros like Debian and Ubuntu to fix
> > > > > > accessibility
> > > > > > problems. Ubuntu is the most popular distro on the desktop.
> > > > > > While
> > > > > > accessibility is good, it has problems. When 16.04 came out,
> > > > > > Orca was
> > > > > > broken. I believe there are only a small number (no more than
> > > > > > a few)
> > > > > > people on the accessibility team. Debian could also
> > > > > > desperately use
> > > > > > help. It would look much better for the blind community if an
> > > > > > organization donated their time and talents to auditing the
> > > > > > packages in
> > > > > > Debian and either fixing those with accessibility bugs which
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > easily be fixed or working with the upstream developers,
> > > > > > providing
> > > > > > patches and consulting with them to make their packages more
> > > > > > accessible.
> > > > > > To me, it seems like a huge waste of time to put a ton of
> > > > > > energy into
> > > > > > beating Fedora, Ubuntu or whatever distro into submission and
> > > > > > slapping a
> > > > > > "Vinux" or "Sonar" label on it when that same upstream distro
> > > > > > with very
> > > > > > few tweaks could be made that way out of the box. If you
> > > > > > absolutely must
> > > > > > modify packages, desktop settings, etc from the upstream
> > > > > > defaults, such
> > > > > > as for low vision users, create a Vinux repository instead or
> > > > > > work with
> > > > > > the Ubuntu community to create an official Ubuntu flavor
> > > > > > called Ubuntu
> > > > > > VI or something. There is already a Ubuntu MATE flavor, so why
> > > > > > not work
> > > > > > with them directly? While we're at it, what about Orca? I see
> > > > > > only one
> > > > > > main paid developer working on it. I'm sure she could use some
> > > > > > help, not
> > > > > > to mention thorough testing. Getting back to the Windows
> > > > > > screen readers,
> > > > > > I fear that blind people will not be given the choice of what
> > > > > > distro
> > > > > > they want and will be locked out of mainstream use because
> > > > > > there is
> > > > > > primarily one Vinux to rule them all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In conclusion, I will continue not recommending any
> > > > > > specialized distro
> > > > > > to my clients and other people. I think they are almost always
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > mistake. As we have seen yet again, it does lead to
> > > > > > fragmentation and
> > > > > > generally bad luck for all concerned. I couldn't get any of
> > > > > > them (Sonar,
> > > > > > Vinux or Talking Arch) to work reliably on my 2009 machine
> > > > > > which runs XP
> > > > > > great and has a very old, well-supported standard sound card.
> > > > > > I had to
> > > > > > invent my own live / rescue CD because there wasn't anything
> > > > > > reliable.
> > > > > > Hopefully the official Debian rescue CD will have reliable
> > > > > > speech soon.
> > > > > > Something like a Vinux rescue CD would be a great idea, but
> > > > > > not a live
> > > > > > system with an unreliable graphical desktop, horrible speech
> > > > > > (ESpeak)
> > > > > > and an unreliable infrastructure which crashes for no obvious
> > > > > > reason
> > > > > > while the mainstream Debian and Ubuntu distros don't. All of
> > > > > > that said,
> > > > > > I wish both teams the best of luck and I guess we'll see what
> > > > > > happens. I
> > > > > > would only add that if you haven't taken the plunge and
> > > > > > actually tried
> > > > > > Linux, give Ubuntu MATE a try. It's fast, works well and can
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > installed independently by the blind in about an hour. It
> > > > > > does,
> > > > > > unfortunately, still use ESpeak. Getting a commercial company
> > > > > > to release
> > > > > > a decent synth as open source would be a great thing for a
> > > > > > nonprofit to
> > > > > > do, even if it required buying the rights.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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