ok, now I know this is going outside the usual Linux for the blind discussion, but: how am I supposed to access the install media on a BSD installation, when the installer isn't running an SSH session that would allow me to? sounds a bit like Chicken and the Egg, don't you think? -eric On Mar 21, 2017, at 5:17 AM, Kelly Prescott wrote: > I have just discovered that the updates to the kernel in archlinux makes speakup not talk with the curses console output. > I have not had time to figure out why, but a work around is to use ssh into the box you are running qemu on and that solves the problem. > kp > > > > On Fri, 17 Mar 2017, Kelly Prescott wrote: > >> Ok, there is not a link, here is what I do. >> Make sure you are logged into your system at a text console with speakup running. >> ***DO*** not do this in a X session or it will not work. >> >> I create a image file. >> qemu-img create -o size=16G -f raw openbsd.img >> Change to taste. >> Here is the qemu install command I use for the current release. >> >> qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -soundhw ac97 -machine type=pc,accel=kvm -curses -m 1024 -cdrom install60.iso -boot order=d openbsd.img >> Here is the command I use once the install is finished for normal booting. >> qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -soundhw ac97 -machine type=pc,accel=kvm >> -curses -m 1024 openbsd.img >> >> Remember, these commands are probably put on more than one line by the mailer software. >> This works on anything with a text-based install, freebsd, netbsd, openbsd, pfsense etc... >> >> Have fun. >> >> >> On Thu, 16 Mar 2017, Eric Oyen wrote: >> >>> ok, can you send me the link with how to do that? I would certainly >>> appreciate it a lot. >>> >>> -eric >>> from the central office of the Technomage Guild, Access technology >>> Division 6. >>> >>> On Mar 16, 2017, at 8:30 PM, Kelly Prescott wrote: >>> > I use BSD all the time. >>> > I use Qemu to set them up. >>> > This gives me the text consoles and I can install them and speakup does > the work. >>> > I do NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD all that way. >>> > once they are installed, I just ssh to them. >>> > > > > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2017, Eric Oyen wrote: >>> > > > that was one of the things I tried. I never could get it to work. Of > > course, someone may have properly ported it since I last tried some 4 > > years ago. >>> > > > > the only thing severely lacking in OpenBSD is braille/speech support > > in the installation. I mean, seriously, its a text based console > > environment so it should be rather easy to do, but getting Theo to see > > that is like pulling Teeth! >>> > > > > oh well, I will get a little sighted assistance here in the next few > > days and get an image setup under vmware. then I can get the post > > config done and actually be able to log into it. at that point, it > > should be relatively easy to add the ports tree and compile BrlTTY. >>> > > > > > > > > meanwhile, back to the actual issue at hand…. Does anyone here > > remember openSuse? I spent more than a year trying to get them to make > > their product accessible. Their version of Linux had some nice > > features, but it wouldn't work with any screen readers and there were > > no packages for such either. I kept asking on their forums and > > eventually a developer chimed in and stated they had no interest in > > making their product accessible (claiming too much work, etc. etc.). > > That was 7 years ago and they are still not accessible. So, it isn't > > just fedora that has an issue with us. >>> > > > > so, my question is this: why is Vinux now merging with SONAR (a Fedora > > based project) when Fedora is known to have little interest in our > > needs? I don't know about the rest of you, but it seems to me that we > > are being treated like the red headed step child here. >>> > > > > -eric >>> > > from the central office of the Technomage Guild, access technology > > division 6. >>> > > > > On Mar 16, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Anders Holmberg wrote: >>> > > > > > Hi! >>> > > > I think you can build brltty for bsd. >>> > > > But i am not sure. >>> > > > And that requiers a braille display. >>> > > > /A >>> > > > > 16 mars 2017 kl. 21:57 skrev Eric Oyen <eric.oyen@xxxxxxxxxx>: >>> > > > > > > > > and now we see the crux of the issue. its called a lack of proper > > > > attention to the problem. >>> > > > > > > > > this is the biggest holdup to a lot of us blind folks, lack of > > > > coherent information. It's most telling in the local activities > > > > and events arena, but it shows up in technology as well. SOunds > > > > like it's time to spread the news on FB, swarm, snap chat, > > > > twitter, and any other social media outlet we can find. I might > > > > even point this article at Theo De Raadt of OpenBSD and see if he > > > > will actually consider it.. It would be nice to have a little > > > > support from some of the big names behind alternative Operating > > > > systems (like the BSD ecology or the Linux ecology). In fact, I > > > > will cc this missive to them. I doubt it will get any sort of > > > > useful response, but there is no harm in trying. >>> > > > > > > > > btw, I was involved in trying to get a screen reader working in > > > > OpenBSD. It was speakeasy and it failed rather ignominiously. > > > > Since I am not a coder, I didn't exactly have the tools required > > > > to properly port it. what I ended up with only partially worked. > > > > Getting any help from the OpenBSD development corps was a lost > > > > cause right from the outset. Here it is over 4 years later and I > > > > have one since given up on ever getting some help from them. > > > > Perhaps it's time that a bunch of us bug Theo directly. if he gets > > > > enough emails on the subject, he might reconsider his position. > > > > His developer email is Theo de Raadt <deraadt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> > > > > > > > > anyway, it also sounds like we need to get everyone else in the > > > > community of the blind on board with this. that means hitting up > > > > the various lighthouse organizations, the NFB, the ACB, and the > > > > AFB as well as the world blind union. SInce I am also on a number > > > > of technology lists dedicated to blind users and technology > > > > (including almost all of the mac lists for the blind), it > > > > shouldn't be that hard to get this information out. perhaps > > > > partnering up with a few of the bigger blindness blogs wouldn't > > > > hurt either. >>> > > > > > > > > -eric >>> > > > > from the central office of the Technomage Guild, access technology > > > > division 6. >>> > > > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2017, at 8:39 AM, John G Heim wrote: >>> > > > > > > > > > It's funny you should say it's long overdue for there to be a > > > > > blindness related non-profit. I was part of a group who created > > > > > exactly that several years ago. After much discussion, we called > > > > > ourselves The International Association Of Visually Impaired > > > > > Technologists or IAVIT. See www.iavit.org. >>> > > > > > > > > > > After creating the non-profit, the real problem has been lack of > > > > > interest in using it's resources. We are incorporated as a 501c3 > > > > > in the USA so we can legally accept donations. We have a lawyer, > > > > > a bank account, a paypal account at the non-profit rates, > > > > > donated server space, etc. The entire infrastructure is there. > > > > > We're just waiting for people to say, "Hey, I could use this or > > > > > that." >>> > > > > > > > > > > On 03/16/2017 07:53 AM, Tony Baechler wrote: >>> > > > > > > Be warned that my comments are most likely unpopular and > > > > > > controversial. >>> > > > > > > See below. I'm not really interested in discussing this > > > > > > further, so >>> > > > > > > don't expect a response. >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/15/2017 3:30 AM, Kyle wrote: >>> > > > > > > > Sonar merges with the Vinux Project. >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, this is indeed unfortunate. First, it was never said > > > > > > what "common >>> > > > > > > goals" were discussed. Granted I don't closely follow either > > > > > > project, >>> > > > > > > but I'm disappointed and surprised to see Vinux heading > > > > > > towards a Fedora >>> > > > > > > base. Red Hat has stated many, even numerous times, both in > > > > > > their >>> > > > > > > inaction and in published docs on their sites, that they have > > > > > > no or very >>> > > > > > > little interest in core accessibility. Yes, I realize this > > > > > > list is >>> > > > > > > hosted by Red Hat, but honestly, anyone can host a mailing > > > > > > list >>> > > > > > > nowadays, so to me, that doesn't count. Look at groups.io, > > > > > > Yahoo Groups, >>> > > > > > > etc. Unlike Debian, Ubuntu and Slackware, to the best of my > > > > > > knowledge, >>> > > > > > > Fedora has never made their installer accessible out of the > > > > > > box. I >>> > > > > > > understand that now their installer talks with Orca, but I > > > > > > think that's >>> > > > > > > more by accident than anything. Fedora does claim to have > > > > > > accessibility >>> > > > > > > with the Gnome desktop though, but I don't think one can > > > > > > easily use >>> > > > > > > Speakup and a text console to do the install. I could very > > > > > > well be wrong >>> > > > > > > on this as I quit following Fedora years ago for the above > > > > > > reasons. >>> > > > > > > There were projects like Speakup Modified (now dead I think), > > > > > > but they >>> > > > > > > were community projects with no support from Fedora > > > > > > developers. >>> > > > > > > Presumably, since Sonar is being folded in, they will use a > > > > > > distro other >>> > > > > > > than Fedora. In the long term, I think Fedora would be a very > > > > > > bad idea >>> > > > > > > for many reasons which I won't go into here. >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it's a great idea for there to be an a11y, or even >>> > > > > > > blindness-specific nonprofit to be formed. I would even say > > > > > > it's very >>> > > > > > > long overdue. If Apache, Mozilla, the Linux kernel and many > > > > > > others can >>> > > > > > > do it, there is no reason why the blind community can't. I > > > > > > would even >>> > > > > > > suggest moving this and other Linux lists to that > > > > > > organization. Yes, I >>> > > > > > > realize that nonprofit and not-for-profit are different. I > > > > > > would push to >>> > > > > > > make it a U.S based nonprofit. Start a Kickstarter or other > > > > > > fundraising >>> > > > > > > compaign. I would donate to it. As much as Facebook doesn't > > > > > > support >>> > > > > > > accessibility and generally is against the open source spirit, > > > > > > a page on >>> > > > > > > there, Twitter, Tumblr, etc would be a very good idea. There > > > > > > needs to be >>> > > > > > > a strong publicity team to write articles for both the > > > > > > blindness >>> > > > > > > magazines (ACB Braille Forum, etc) and the mainstream Linux > > > > > > magazines >>> > > > > > > like LWN. Amazingly, there has been almost no mention of > > > > > > Speakup in the >>> > > > > > > mainstream Linux community at all. I think a fair number of > > > > > > companies >>> > > > > > > and developers don't take us seriously because they don't know > > > > > > we exist >>> > > > > > > and that blind people not only can and do use computers but in > > > > > > fact can >>> > > > > > > and do use Linux on a regular basis. I just got an email from > > > > > > someone >>> > > > > > > asking if I'm blind, how do I read and write? There is still a > > > > > > huge >>> > > > > > > amount of ignorance out there. I realize this isn't strictly a > > > > > > Linux >>> > > > > > > accessibility issue, but what leads to the next great > > > > > > breakthrough might >>> > > > > > > be started by a developer seeing that blind people want an > > > > > > accessible >>> > > > > > > desktop like everyone else. With an actual organization, KDE > > > > > > could be >>> > > > > > > pushed for accessibility and developers from the organization > > > > > > could >>> > > > > > > help. In other words, not only does it need to be a nonprofit > > > > > > a11y >>> > > > > > > organization who works with other developers and develops > > > > > > software, but >>> > > > > > > it also needs to be an advocacy and lobbyist group to demand > > > > > > big and >>> > > > > > > small companies make their software accessible. >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > However, I see a huge flaw in the merger. I think we're going > > > > > > down the >>> > > > > > > same path as Windows screen readers. I'm not saying that Vinux > > > > > > would go >>> > > > > > > commercial. What I'm saying is I fear they would end up like a > > > > > > big >>> > > > > > > company who shall remain nameless. There are other screen > > > > > > readers out >>> > > > > > > there such as NVDA, but very few people take them seriously > > > > > > because this >>> > > > > > > big company has almost a monopoly. Granted, Linux is still far > > > > > > from >>> > > > > > > having a huge share of the market, but if it should reach the > > > > > > 90% or >>> > > > > > > even 50% point some day, it would be very unfortunate for > > > > > > rehab agencies >>> > > > > > > and employers to force people to use Vinux because that's the > > > > > > only >>> > > > > > > specialized distro for the blind. What would be much better is > > > > > > to work >>> > > > > > > with the mainstream distros like Debian and Ubuntu to fix > > > > > > accessibility >>> > > > > > > problems. Ubuntu is the most popular distro on the desktop. > > > > > > While >>> > > > > > > accessibility is good, it has problems. When 16.04 came out, > > > > > > Orca was >>> > > > > > > broken. I believe there are only a small number (no more than > > > > > > a few) >>> > > > > > > people on the accessibility team. Debian could also > > > > > > desperately use >>> > > > > > > help. It would look much better for the blind community if an >>> > > > > > > organization donated their time and talents to auditing the > > > > > > packages in >>> > > > > > > Debian and either fixing those with accessibility bugs which > > > > > > could >>> > > > > > > easily be fixed or working with the upstream developers, > > > > > > providing >>> > > > > > > patches and consulting with them to make their packages more > > > > > > accessible. >>> > > > > > > To me, it seems like a huge waste of time to put a ton of > > > > > > energy into >>> > > > > > > beating Fedora, Ubuntu or whatever distro into submission and > > > > > > slapping a >>> > > > > > > "Vinux" or "Sonar" label on it when that same upstream distro > > > > > > with very >>> > > > > > > few tweaks could be made that way out of the box. If you > > > > > > absolutely must >>> > > > > > > modify packages, desktop settings, etc from the upstream > > > > > > defaults, such >>> > > > > > > as for low vision users, create a Vinux repository instead or > > > > > > work with >>> > > > > > > the Ubuntu community to create an official Ubuntu flavor > > > > > > called Ubuntu >>> > > > > > > VI or something. There is already a Ubuntu MATE flavor, so why > > > > > > not work >>> > > > > > > with them directly? While we're at it, what about Orca? I see > > > > > > only one >>> > > > > > > main paid developer working on it. I'm sure she could use some > > > > > > help, not >>> > > > > > > to mention thorough testing. Getting back to the Windows > > > > > > screen readers, >>> > > > > > > I fear that blind people will not be given the choice of what > > > > > > distro >>> > > > > > > they want and will be locked out of mainstream use because > > > > > > there is >>> > > > > > > primarily one Vinux to rule them all. >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > In conclusion, I will continue not recommending any > > > > > > specialized distro >>> > > > > > > to my clients and other people. I think they are almost always > > > > > > a >>> > > > > > > mistake. As we have seen yet again, it does lead to > > > > > > fragmentation and >>> > > > > > > generally bad luck for all concerned. I couldn't get any of > > > > > > them (Sonar, >>> > > > > > > Vinux or Talking Arch) to work reliably on my 2009 machine > > > > > > which runs XP >>> > > > > > > great and has a very old, well-supported standard sound card. > > > > > > I had to >>> > > > > > > invent my own live / rescue CD because there wasn't anything > > > > > > reliable. >>> > > > > > > Hopefully the official Debian rescue CD will have reliable > > > > > > speech soon. >>> > > > > > > Something like a Vinux rescue CD would be a great idea, but > > > > > > not a live >>> > > > > > > system with an unreliable graphical desktop, horrible speech > > > > > > (ESpeak) >>> > > > > > > and an unreliable infrastructure which crashes for no obvious > > > > > > reason >>> > > > > > > while the mainstream Debian and Ubuntu distros don't. All of > > > > > > that said, >>> > > > > > > I wish both teams the best of luck and I guess we'll see what > > > > > > happens. I >>> > > > > > > would only add that if you haven't taken the plunge and > > > > > > actually tried >>> > > > > > > Linux, give Ubuntu MATE a try. It's fast, works well and can > > > > > > be >>> > > > > > > installed independently by the blind in about an hour. It > > > > > > does, >>> > > > > > > unfortunately, still use ESpeak. Getting a commercial company > > > > > > to release >>> > > > > > > a decent synth as open source would be a great thing for a > > > > > > nonprofit to >>> > > > > > > do, even if it required buying the rights. >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > > > > > Blinux-list mailing list >>> > > > > > > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>> > > > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > > > > Blinux-list mailing list >>> > > > > > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>> > > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > > > Blinux-list mailing list >>> > > > > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>> > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > > Blinux-list mailing list >>> > > > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>> > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > Blinux-list mailing list >>> > > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Blinux-list mailing list >>> > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Blinux-list mailing list >>> Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > _______________________________________________ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list _______________________________________________ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list