--=======753647FB======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-46A8146E; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi John, While I administer mostly Linux boxes, and can work with them competently, I do not believe that Linux is ready for prime time in the homes and businesses of most computer users. Its configuration is rather arcane in comparison to the plug and pray configuration of Windows, and the GUI and applications aren't nearly as well developed on Linux. Yes, well, I hope that can change. At 02:41 PM 7/14/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Darrell, >A lot of us are trying to make Linux the manistream OS of choice. We >want to compete with Windows. It's by no means just a matter of >accessibility. >Sindows stinks! >John >On Sun, 14 Jul 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote: > > > Hi John and Janina, > > > > Perhaps, with respect to the Links browser, I am operating on somewhat > of a > > lack of knowledge then, because I last used Lynx 2 or 3 years ago, and was > > not aware of significant further development. With respect to Links (l > i n > > k s) I am totally out of my league. So, until I have gained a bit more > > knowledge of these browsers again, I shall refrane. > > > > However, to some extent, my argument remains. Windows is mainstream, > while > > Linux is not. It is therefore logical, like it or not, that most web site > > designers will design to whatever technology most people use, to get the > > most bang for their limited bucks. Unfortunately, this may not include > > text based browsers such as those that run under a console on a UNIX > > platform. I desire greater accessible at every turn, and don't want to > > advocate for anything that might unduely restrict this possibility. My > > approach is, therefore, to promote accessibility for mainstream > technology; > > if it also works under Linux and other less used platforms, then all the > > better! > > > > Though I am a Linux user and big proponent of Linux, especially on server > > platforms, I am also a realist. It seems that, despite all the widespread > > security holes and software bugs, there is absolutely no sign that > > Microsoft Windows is losing any ground in the computer industry. Please > > understand that I am not slamming Linux at all; I see Linux as eventually > > becoming the number two most commonly used operating system on the > desktop, > > behind Windows, and surpassing MacOS. > > > > > > At 01:27 PM 7/14/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >Janina, > > >I agree completely. As an aside, one reason why I switched from Windows > > >to Linux is that Windows has all those scripting languages turned on by > > >default. This makes it like flypaper for viruses. unfortunately, unlike > > >flypaper, it doesn't kill the bugs. > > >I am gettying much better accessibility to the vast majority of Web > > >pages with Lynx and BRLTTY than I ever got with IE and Jaws. > > >As an example of an inaccessible site that is purportedly for people > > >with disabilities, take a look at www.sprintonlinerelay.com. It contains > > >no explanation of what it is and how to use it on the home page. The > > >help link depends on javascript. And a user on another list said that > > >while he could see what he was typing on his Braille display, he could > > >not see what the reply was. This site needs Work@ > > >I dislike flashy effects on personal grounds. Generally I avoid sites > > >that want me to download something. That's a security hole also. > > >John > > >On Sun, 14 > > >Jul 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > > > Darrell, > > > > > > > > This is the second time in two days you've called lynx (with a 'y') > > > > obsolete. And, I want to dcall you on that assertion. > > > > > > > > Can you please explain what's obsolete about a browser still actively > > > > being developed? One that loads faster than IE, supports greater > > > > encryption levels than anything on Windows including Opera? etc. > > > > Do you assert it's obsolete because it doesn't support javascript? > Well, > > > > neither does the W3C? Are they obsolete as well, then, by this logic? > > > > > > > > I know a number of folks, fully able bodied, who routinely turn off > > > > javascript support in their javascript capable browsers because they're > > > > loathe to let any site execute code on their local systems? In fact, > > > > javascript is arguably a security hole along with all other scripting > > > > languages that require local code execution on the client side. > > > > > > > > You've written in support of flashy effects. I have nothing against > good > > > > visuals, but I have much against non consensus web practices that > require > > > > particular technology and turn up the nose against other perfectly > capable > > > > html user agents that do conform to consensus web standards. > > > > > > > > May I further note that 508 is not a consensus standard, but one > imposed > > > > by a Federal agency, though certainly after input from affected > > > > communities. But it is not a consensus standard, but one of the Federal > > > > Access Board which has no technically noted members, and only one > on staff > > > > with any real technical chops. > > > > > > > > I have no idea when last you used lynx, but I suspect you're > opinion about > > > > it is the obsolete thing here. In my own use of lynx and IE I am quite > > > > surprised how often pages that don't work with lynx also don't work > with > > > > IE or Netscape on Windows. Obviously, this isn't always the case, > but it > > > > is the case very very often. > > > > > > > > This is my direct and recent experience. What have you compared > recently? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, > > > > 14 Jul 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > > > > > > > Yes, indeed, while I am definitely a Linux fan, I believe different > > > kinds > > > > > of technology have their own places. Linux is excellent for fast, > > > reliable > > > > > server computers, and for computer users who just can't afford > expensive > > > > > operating systems and applications, as well as even more expensive > > > screen > > > > > readers. Nevertheless, we also can't expect all site designers not > > > to use > > > > > any "flashy" effects. Making such requirements part of any > request for > > > > > greater accessibility is only going to hurt our cause. I just want > > > decent > > > > > access, I don't support making specific requirements that a > > > particular site > > > > > work with an obsolete browser such as Lynx. > > > > > > > > > > I am absolutely hopeful, and keeping my fingers crossed with > respect to > > > > > Gnome, Gnupernicus, and other projects for access to the GUI under > > > > > Linux. If these solutions provide good access to a web browser like > > > > > Netscape, then all concerns about compatibility with Lynx for Linux > > > users > > > > > should be somewhat nullified, because blind Linux users would then > > > have the > > > > > ability to use a modern web browser. > > > > > > > > > > Just my $0.02! > > > > > > > > > > At 09:50 AM 7/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Darrell, > > > > > >I use Lynx all the time, and on the majority of Web sites it > gives far > > > > > >better results than IE and Jaws ever did. Of course, BRLTTY has much > > > > > >better Braille output than Jaws. In any case, I'm not going back to > > > > > >Windows because some sites insist on using flashy effects. > > > > > >Oet's hope that Gnome 2 really has good accessibility features > and that > > > > > >the Gnopernicus screen reader really has good Braille output. > > > > > >John > > > > > >On Sat, 13 > > > > > >Jul 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Cheryl, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll check this one out shortly, but I do not believe good > web site > > > > > > > accessibility absolutely requires that the site work with > > > Lynx. The Lynx > > > > > > > browser is quite obsolete in comparison to current > > > technology... If the > > > > > > > site uses Java Script, and Lynx can't do Java Script, then > that's not > > > > > > > necessarily an accessibility issue if a Java Script capable > > > browser with a > > > > > > > screen reader can successfully render an accessible result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We must be careful here; what constitutes accessibility? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 07:18 PM 7/12/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi everybody. > > > > > > > >ray morgan, the 508 coordinator for the US postal Service, > has been > > > > > > > >corresponding with me re: the inaccessibility of the > www.usps.com > > > > > > site. I had > > > > > > > >pointed out to him that when using lynx one gets a message > about > > > enabling > > > > > > > >javascript, and when using links-2.0 and above it is > impossible to > > > > > > check out > > > > > > > >once you have placed something in your cart. He has been > diligently > > > > > > keeping me > > > > > > > >posted regarding progress on the site. > > > > > > > >Today he wrote and said that i should be able to purchase and > > > check out > > > > > > > >now, but > > > > > > > >he also indicated that javascript support is still needed. > He also > > > > > > indicated > > > > > > > >that testers found the site works with jaws, though he said > some > > > more > > > > > > work > > > > > > > >needs > > > > > > > >to be done. > > > > > > > >I worte him back and thanked him for all his effort and > > > diligence in > > > > > > informing > > > > > > > >me, but also reminded him that usability with jaws and > > > accessibility > > > > > > are not > > > > > > > >necessarily the same thing. I pointed out that not everybody > > > wants to > > > > > > use Jaws > > > > > > > >and that not everybody who even wants to do so can afford it. I > > > told > > > > > > him I > > > > > > > >would > > > > > > > >let him know what happened when I tried to use the site again. > > > > > > > >Unfortunately, when I went to the site and again tried to buy > > > stamps, > > > > > > nothing > > > > > > > >had changed for me. with links-2.1pre2 I was unable to go > through > > > > > > checkout and > > > > > > > >with lynx I of course got the same old messages about enabling > > > javascript. > > > > > > > >I wrote to ray and told him that i would post on this list and > > > see if > > > > > > somebdy > > > > > > > >with more technical knowledge than I possess would like to try > > > to help > > > > > > track > > > > > > > >down the problem. If anybody is interested in trying to help > > > with this, > > > > > > > >Ray Morgan's email address is > > > > > > > >RMORGAN1@email.usps.gov > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I think he really genuinely is trying to work on this problem. > > > > > > > >Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheryl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > > > > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > > > > > > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > > > > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > > > > > >Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 7/1/2002 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > Darrell Shandrow > > > > > > > Access technology consulting / network and UNIX systems > > > > > > administration. > > > > > > > CompTIA A+ Certified Service Technician! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > >Computers to Help People, Inc. > > > > > >http://www.chpi.org > > > > > >825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > > > > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > > > >Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 7/10/2002 > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Darrell Shandrow > > > > > Access technology consulting / network and UNIX systems > > > administration. > > > > > CompTIA A+ Certified Service Technician! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Computers to Help People, Inc. > > >http://www.chpi.org > > >825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com > > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > >--- > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > >Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 7/10/2002 > > > > Best regards, > > Darrell Shandrow > > Access technology consulting / network and UNIX systems > administration. > > CompTIA A+ Certified Service Technician! > > > >-- >Computers to Help People, Inc. >http://www.chpi.org >825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703 > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Blinux-list@redhat.com >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 7/10/2002 Best regards, Darrell Shandrow Access technology consulting / network and UNIX systems administration. CompTIA A+ Certified Service Technician! --=======753647FB======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-46A8146E Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 7/10/2002 --=======753647FB=======--