anybody want to get involved re: usps.com

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Darrell,
A lot of us are trying to make Linux the manistream OS of choice. We 
want to compete with Windows. It's by no means just a matter of 
accessibility.
Sindows stinks!
John
On Sun, 14 Jul 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:

> Hi John and Janina,
> 
> Perhaps, with respect to the Links browser, I am operating on somewhat of a 
> lack of knowledge then, because I last used Lynx 2 or 3 years ago, and was 
> not aware of significant further development.  With respect to Links (l i n 
> k s) I am totally out of my league.  So, until I have gained a bit more 
> knowledge of these browsers again, I shall refrane.
> 
> However, to some extent, my argument remains.  Windows is mainstream, while 
> Linux is not.  It is therefore logical, like it or not, that most web site 
> designers will design to whatever technology most people use, to get the 
> most bang for their limited bucks.  Unfortunately, this may not include 
> text based browsers such as those that run under a console on a UNIX 
> platform.  I desire greater accessible at every turn, and don't want to 
> advocate for anything that might unduely restrict this possibility.  My 
> approach is, therefore, to promote accessibility for mainstream technology; 
> if it also works under Linux and other less used platforms, then all the 
> better!
> 
> Though I am a Linux user and big proponent of Linux, especially on server 
> platforms, I am also a realist.  It seems that, despite all the widespread 
> security holes and software bugs, there is absolutely no sign that 
> Microsoft Windows is losing any ground in the computer industry.  Please 
> understand that I am not slamming Linux at all; I see Linux as eventually 
> becoming the number two most commonly used operating system on the desktop, 
> behind Windows, and surpassing MacOS.
> 
> 
> At 01:27 PM 7/14/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Janina,
> >I agree completely. As an aside, one reason why I switched from Windows
> >to Linux is that Windows has all those scripting languages turned on by
> >default. This makes it like flypaper for viruses. unfortunately, unlike
> >flypaper, it doesn't kill the bugs.
> >I am gettying much better accessibility to the vast majority of Web
> >pages with Lynx and BRLTTY than I ever got with IE and Jaws.
> >As an example of an inaccessible site that is purportedly for people
> >with disabilities, take a look at www.sprintonlinerelay.com. It contains
> >no explanation of what it is and how to use it on the home page. The
> >help link depends on javascript. And a user on another list said that
> >while he could see what he was typing on his Braille display, he could
> >not see what the reply was. This site needs Work@
> >I dislike flashy effects on personal grounds. Generally I avoid sites
> >that want me to download something. That's a security hole also.
> >John
> >On Sun, 14
> >Jul 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> >
> > > Darrell,
> > >
> > > This is the second time in two days you've called lynx (with a 'y')
> > > obsolete. And, I want to dcall you on that assertion.
> > >
> > > Can you please explain what's obsolete about a browser still actively
> > > being developed? One that loads faster than IE, supports greater
> > > encryption levels than anything on Windows including Opera? etc.
> > > Do you assert it's obsolete because it doesn't support javascript? Well,
> > > neither does the W3C? Are they obsolete as well, then, by this logic?
> > >
> > > I know a number of folks, fully able bodied, who routinely turn off
> > > javascript support in their javascript capable browsers because they're
> > > loathe to let any site execute code on their local systems? In fact,
> > > javascript is arguably a security hole along with all other scripting
> > > languages that require local code execution on the client side.
> > >
> > > You've written in support of flashy effects. I have nothing against good
> > > visuals, but I have much against non consensus web practices that require
> > > particular technology and turn up the nose against other perfectly capable
> > > html user agents that do conform to consensus web standards.
> > >
> > > May I further note that 508 is not a consensus standard, but one imposed
> > > by a Federal agency, though certainly after input from affected
> > > communities. But it is not a consensus standard, but one of the Federal
> > > Access Board which has no technically noted members, and only one on staff
> > > with any real technical chops.
> > >
> > > I have no idea when last you used lynx, but I suspect you're opinion about
> > > it is the obsolete thing here. In my own use of lynx and IE I am quite
> > > surprised how often pages that don't work with lynx also don't work with
> > > IE or Netscape on Windows. Obviously, this isn't always the case, but it
> > > is the case very very often.
> > >
> > > This is my direct and recent experience. What have you compared recently?
> > >
> > >
> > >  On Sun,
> > > 14 Jul 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi John,
> > > >
> > > > Yes, indeed, while I am definitely a Linux fan, I believe different 
> > kinds
> > > > of technology have their own places.  Linux is excellent for fast, 
> > reliable
> > > > server computers, and for computer users who just can't afford expensive
> > > > operating systems and applications, as well as even more expensive 
> > screen
> > > > readers.  Nevertheless, we also can't expect all site designers not 
> > to use
> > > > any "flashy" effects.  Making such requirements part of any request for
> > > > greater accessibility is only going to hurt our cause.  I just want 
> > decent
> > > > access, I don't support making specific requirements that a 
> > particular site
> > > > work with an obsolete browser such as Lynx.
> > > >
> > > > I am absolutely hopeful, and keeping my fingers crossed with respect to
> > > > Gnome, Gnupernicus, and other projects for access to the GUI under
> > > > Linux.  If these solutions provide good access to a web browser like
> > > > Netscape, then all concerns about compatibility with Lynx for Linux 
> > users
> > > > should be somewhat nullified, because blind Linux users would then 
> > have the
> > > > ability to use a modern web browser.
> > > >
> > > > Just my $0.02!
> > > >
> > > > At 09:50 AM 7/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Darrell,
> > > > >I use Lynx all the time, and on the majority of Web sites it gives far
> > > > >better results than IE and Jaws ever did. Of course, BRLTTY has much
> > > > >better Braille output than Jaws. In any case, I'm not going back to
> > > > >Windows because some sites insist on using flashy effects.
> > > > >Oet's hope that Gnome 2 really has good accessibility features and that
> > > > >the Gnopernicus screen reader really has good Braille output.
> > > > >John
> > > > >On Sat, 13
> > > > >Jul 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Cheryl,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll check this one out shortly, but I do not believe good web site
> > > > > > accessibility absolutely requires that the site work with 
> > Lynx.  The Lynx
> > > > > > browser is quite obsolete in comparison to current 
> > technology...  If the
> > > > > > site uses Java Script, and Lynx can't do Java Script, then that's not
> > > > > > necessarily an accessibility issue if a Java Script capable 
> > browser with a
> > > > > > screen reader can successfully render an accessible result.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We must be careful here; what constitutes accessibility?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 07:18 PM 7/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Hi everybody.
> > > > > > >ray morgan, the 508 coordinator for the US postal Service, has been
> > > > > > >corresponding with me re: the inaccessibility of the www.usps.com
> > > > > site. I had
> > > > > > >pointed out to him that when using lynx one gets a message about 
> > enabling
> > > > > > >javascript, and when using links-2.0 and above it is impossible to
> > > > > check out
> > > > > > >once you have placed something in your cart. He has been diligently
> > > > > keeping me
> > > > > > >posted regarding progress on the site.
> > > > > > >Today he wrote and said that i should be able to purchase and 
> > check out
> > > > > > >now, but
> > > > > > >he also indicated that javascript support is still needed. He also
> > > > > indicated
> > > > > > >that testers found the site works with jaws, though he said some 
> > more
> > > > > work
> > > > > > >needs
> > > > > > >to be done.
> > > > > > >I worte him back and thanked him for all his effort and 
> > diligence in
> > > > > informing
> > > > > > >me, but also reminded him that usability with jaws and 
> > accessibility
> > > > > are not
> > > > > > >necessarily the same thing. I pointed out that not everybody 
> > wants to
> > > > > use Jaws
> > > > > > >and that not everybody who even wants to do so can afford it. I 
> > told
> > > > > him I
> > > > > > >would
> > > > > > >let him know what happened when I tried to use the site again.
> > > > > > >Unfortunately, when I went to the site and again tried to buy 
> > stamps,
> > > > > nothing
> > > > > > >had changed for me. with links-2.1pre2 I was unable to go through
> > > > > checkout and
> > > > > > >with lynx I of course got the same old messages about enabling 
> > javascript.
> > > > > > >I wrote to ray and told him that i would post on this list and 
> > see if
> > > > > somebdy
> > > > > > >with more technical knowledge than I possess would like to try 
> > to help
> > > > > track
> > > > > > >down the problem. If anybody is interested in trying to help 
> > with this,
> > > > > > >Ray Morgan's email address is
> > > > > > >RMORGAN1@email.usps.gov
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I think he really genuinely is trying to work on this problem.
> > > > > > >Thanks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Cheryl
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > > > > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >---
> > > > > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > > > >Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 7/1/2002
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > Darrell Shandrow
> > > > > > Access technology consulting / network and UNIX         systems
> > > > > administration.
> > > > > > CompTIA A+      Certified Service Technician!
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--
> > > > >Computers to Help People, Inc.
> > > > >http://www.chpi.org
> > > > >825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >---
> > > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > >Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 7/10/2002
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Darrell Shandrow
> > > > Access technology consulting / network and UNIX         systems 
> > administration.
> > > > CompTIA A+      Certified Service Technician!
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >--
> >Computers to Help People, Inc.
> >http://www.chpi.org
> >825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >Blinux-list@redhat.com
> >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> >---
> >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 7/10/2002
> 
> Best regards,
> Darrell Shandrow
> Access technology consulting / network and UNIX         systems administration.
> CompTIA A+      Certified Service Technician!
> 

-- 
Computers to Help People, Inc.
http://www.chpi.org
825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703






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