This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --=======4A6D791C======= Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; X-AVG-CHECKED=avg-ok-7D42645F; CHARSET=US-ASCII; FORMAT=flowed Content-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207141354492.17389@TekRD.grg.afb.net> Darrell, This is the second time in two days you've called lynx (with a 'y') obsolete. And, I want to dcall you on that assertion. Can you please explain what's obsolete about a browser still actively being developed? One that loads faster than IE, supports greater encryption levels than anything on Windows including Opera? etc. Do you assert it's obsolete because it doesn't support javascript? Well, neither does the W3C? Are they obsolete as well, then, by this logic? I know a number of folks, fully able bodied, who routinely turn off javascript support in their javascript capable browsers because they're loathe to let any site execute code on their local systems? In fact, javascript is arguably a security hole along with all other scripting languages that require local code execution on the client side. You've written in support of flashy effects. I have nothing against good visuals, but I have much against non consensus web practices that require particular technology and turn up the nose against other perfectly capable html user agents that do conform to consensus web standards. May I further note that 508 is not a consensus standard, but one imposed by a Federal agency, though certainly after input from affected communities. But it is not a consensus standard, but one of the Federal Access Board which has no technically noted members, and only one on staff with any real technical chops. I have no idea when last you used lynx, but I suspect you're opinion about it is the obsolete thing here. In my own use of lynx and IE I am quite surprised how often pages that don't work with lynx also don't work with IE or Netscape on Windows. Obviously, this isn't always the case, but it is the case very very often. This is my direct and recent experience. What have you compared recently? On Sun, 14 Jul 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote: > Hi John, > > Yes, indeed, while I am definitely a Linux fan, I believe different kinds > of technology have their own places. Linux is excellent for fast, reliable > server computers, and for computer users who just can't afford expensive > operating systems and applications, as well as even more expensive screen > readers. Nevertheless, we also can't expect all site designers not to use > any "flashy" effects. Making such requirements part of any request for > greater accessibility is only going to hurt our cause. I just want decent > access, I don't support making specific requirements that a particular site > work with an obsolete browser such as Lynx. > > I am absolutely hopeful, and keeping my fingers crossed with respect to > Gnome, Gnupernicus, and other projects for access to the GUI under > Linux. If these solutions provide good access to a web browser like > Netscape, then all concerns about compatibility with Lynx for Linux users > should be somewhat nullified, because blind Linux users would then have the > ability to use a modern web browser. > > Just my $0.02! > > At 09:50 AM 7/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > >Darrell, > >I use Lynx all the time, and on the majority of Web sites it gives far > >better results than IE and Jaws ever did. Of course, BRLTTY has much > >better Braille output than Jaws. In any case, I'm not going back to > >Windows because some sites insist on using flashy effects. > >Oet's hope that Gnome 2 really has good accessibility features and that > >the Gnopernicus screen reader really has good Braille output. > >John > >On Sat, 13 > >Jul 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote: > > > > > Hi Cheryl, > > > > > > I'll check this one out shortly, but I do not believe good web site > > > accessibility absolutely requires that the site work with Lynx. The Lynx > > > browser is quite obsolete in comparison to current technology... If the > > > site uses Java Script, and Lynx can't do Java Script, then that's not > > > necessarily an accessibility issue if a Java Script capable browser with a > > > screen reader can successfully render an accessible result. > > > > > > We must be careful here; what constitutes accessibility? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > At 07:18 PM 7/12/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > >Hi everybody. > > > >ray morgan, the 508 coordinator for the US postal Service, has been > > > >corresponding with me re: the inaccessibility of the www.usps.com > > site. I had > > > >pointed out to him that when using lynx one gets a message about enabling > > > >javascript, and when using links-2.0 and above it is impossible to > > check out > > > >once you have placed something in your cart. He has been diligently > > keeping me > > > >posted regarding progress on the site. > > > >Today he wrote and said that i should be able to purchase and check out > > > >now, but > > > >he also indicated that javascript support is still needed. He also > > indicated > > > >that testers found the site works with jaws, though he said some more > > work > > > >needs > > > >to be done. > > > >I worte him back and thanked him for all his effort and diligence in > > informing > > > >me, but also reminded him that usability with jaws and accessibility > > are not > > > >necessarily the same thing. I pointed out that not everybody wants to > > use Jaws > > > >and that not everybody who even wants to do so can afford it. I told > > him I > > > >would > > > >let him know what happened when I tried to use the site again. > > > >Unfortunately, when I went to the site and again tried to buy stamps, > > nothing > > > >had changed for me. with links-2.1pre2 I was unable to go through > > checkout and > > > >with lynx I of course got the same old messages about enabling javascript. > > > >I wrote to ray and told him that i would post on this list and see if > > somebdy > > > >with more technical knowledge than I possess would like to try to help > > track > > > >down the problem. If anybody is interested in trying to help with this, > > > >Ray Morgan's email address is > > > >RMORGAN1@email.usps.gov > > > > > > > >I think he really genuinely is trying to work on this problem. > > > >Thanks. > > > > > > > >Cheryl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > >Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 7/1/2002 > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Darrell Shandrow > > > Access technology consulting / network and UNIX systems > > administration. > > > CompTIA A+ Certified Service Technician! > > > > > > >-- > >Computers to Help People, Inc. > >http://www.chpi.org > >825 East Johnson; Madison, WI 53703 > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 7/10/2002 > > Best regards, > Darrell Shandrow > Access technology consulting / network and UNIX systems administration. > CompTIA A+ Certified Service Technician! > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org --=======4A6D791C======= Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii; X-AVG=cert; X-AVG-CHECKED=avg-ok-7D42645F Content-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207141354493.17389@TekRD.grg.afb.net> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: INLINE --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 7/10/2002 --=======4A6D791C=======--