On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:49:01 -0500 Aaron Griffin <aaronmgriffin@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 9:01 AM, <hollunder@xxxxxx> wrote: > > Am I happy to hear that. > > I say this because I'm under the impression that people see only two > > kinds of linux uses: > > 1) The traditional server > > 2) The Desktop > > > > You can, at this time, still do both, but everything in between is > > getting more and more difficult. > > > > The problem is that the Desktop Environments, GNOME and KDE, in > > their quest for "integrated desktop experience" push more and more > > stuff that's really only useful to those DEs deeper and deeper into > > the system. > > If you as a user need or want it or not, you get it. > > > > > > I'd like to provide an example. > > I'm using an oldish PC and like to pick the apps I use myself, > > therefor the DE's so-called 'integration' is just unnecessary and > > rather hindering in the background. I also like configuration. Those > > are the main reasons I don't use DEs. > > > > Recently I tried to figure out what console-kit is actually good > > for. Here's an excerpt of the manual that I especially like: > > Defining the Problem > > To be written. > > http://www.freedesktop.org/software/ConsoleKit/doc/ConsoleKit.html#id312255 > > > > I figured out that it's only useful for something called 'fast user > > switching', something I definitely don't need. > > When trying to remove it I figured that HAL requires it. > > HAL also requires something called policy-kit, yet another thing I > > don't know what it does. > > I recompiled HAL without either, and the system still works as > > before. > > > > Somewhere during the research I figured that HAL is supposed to be > > replaced by something called device-kit. HAL isn't really needed > > says the author in an email, pretty much all the work is done by > > udev etc.. So I figured, hey, why not just remove HAL, this way the > > kits won't come back with the next update, and all I use HAL for is > > mounting usb drives, something that can be done with udev rules as > > well. > > > > Well, trying to do this I found five apps requiring it, the most > > surprising: xorg-server > > > > Conclusion: > > Yeah, great, install xorg for a minimal graphical desktop, what you > > get is console-kit, for a minor feature in a monster DE. > > When will "Desktop" people start to see that they are being > > intrusive? They live in their own small bubble called GNOME or KDE > > and can't ever imagine anyone not wanting to use this. > > Sorry for this "slightly" off topic rant, but it annoys me on a > > regular basis when I see applications depend on gnome or kde, > > mostly for some stupid reason called 'integration' which really > > isn't of much use in the specific DE they integrate with and a > > hindrance to everyone who's not running exactly that DE. > > > > So please, next time you call something integration, think beyond > > the bubble. In our little Linux world with limited developer time > > we need real integration, real solutions and still > > freedom of choice. > > Just a personal reply to say that I loved this email. I've been so > enraged with this recently. I actually get _angry_ about the xorg hal > integration (I have never used hal) - as it means that BY DEFAULT > starting xorg fails because it has no keyboard or mouse; you can, > thankfully, shut off the hal integration with a Option > "AutoAddDevices" "False" in the ServerFlags section of xorg.conf. But > still, what the fuck? For all the history of xorg, it has correctly > done the basics of detection a ordinary mouse and keyboard. But not > any longer. For what reason? I HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA! > > Thanks for the email. It makes me feel like I'm not alone in my > absolute hatred for the direction these things are going. Thanks for your reply Arvid and Aaron. I'm sure there are a lot more people who feel this way, your replies make me a bit more confident that this situation can be changed. Maybe something can be done on Arch to work against this development? The closer to the core a package is the more careful we have to be with dependencies, I think. It's easy to replace a text editor, impossible to replace xorg, etc.. The other thing I can think of is talking to upstream. Maybe they're not that aware of this issue and think along the lines of: "Everyone has HAL installed anyway, it's no problem if we use it to do xyz." Philipp
