On 9/24/2014 09:13, Matthew Miller wrote:
We actually have almost exactly this. Take a look at <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users>, linked in the bottom of every message. It says: This list provides community assistance, encouragement, and advice for Fedora users. Topics outside of that are generally not appropriate for this list. Please keep in mind that there are many thousands of subscribers and do your best to remain on-topic and courteous.
I noticed the words "encouragement" and "advice" are mentioned there.
Discussion about the direction of the distribution is not explicitly called out as banned, but as you can see, it's clearly not the purpose of this list.
Encouraging people to voice their views on Fedora issues and giving people advice on how a particular piece of Fedora operates so they can avoid problems seem to be very much a part of what this list is about. I'm not trying to be argumentative - I very much agree with keeping all discussions civil and productive. However, after reading that and the list guidelines I can see no reason why an adult discussion of something like the adoption of "systemd" is contrary to the purpose of the list. A proper discussion educates users and, in some respects, those who have voiced legitimate concerns regarding "systemd" in a reasonable way are doing just that. For an example of how part of this discussion has been educational, I've heard many people say something to the effect "I wish I had been paying attention to this a while ago." Identifying discussions of whether "package-X" is good/bad/whatever as "not the purpose of this list" doesn't make much sense if these discussions are encouraging and assisting users to make informed decisions, offering reasonable advice, and are civil in nature.
If that is not the case, then I would wager most agree those lines of discussion are clearly are out of bounds not only with respect to the Code of Conduct but also with respect to plain old common sense.
The fact, though, is that this list isn't a good place for that because — largely because the tone is so often negative — it's not a forum that decision-makers can actually follow and get good feedback from.
As someone who has been writing software and providing technical support for more than 30 years, I too have seen my fair share of negative commentary. Still, I would hope that those who are in positions that can affect the direction of Fedora would at least be told of the substantive points being raised here, if any exist, and not simply allow good arguments to die because nobody is interested in picking them up out of the muck, rinsing them off, and repackaging them in a way that they can reach those who can truly make a difference.
More to the point, I understand why a user list is not necessarily the place where decision makers go to get up to speed on any given issue. However, if I were someone who saw an important point being raised in a forum like this and had access to those who could make a difference, I would be sure to write an email to the effect of, "Hey, I just heard an interesting argument about <insert issue here>. The crux is <insert concise description here>. Do you think this is something we should discuss?"
I've had to do that many times in the past myself. I'd get copied in on some nasty emails from users who had an issue with something and most of the time it was just that: people being nasty. However, sometimes the complaint was regarding a legitimate concern even though the commentary was completely toxic. Rather than let a legitimate issue go unresolved, I took the essence of it to my boss and others in authority and pitched it in a more reasonable way. Sometimes I was able to sway them and sometimes I was told to drop it. The bottom line is that I didn't let some venomous end user get in the way of doing what was right for the project I was charged with handling.
To be clear, I'm not indicting anyone here who is interested in instituting a cease fire. My purpose is to demonstrate that sometimes it is important to repackage a tainted concern rather than allowing it to be flushed down the drain during the clean-up effort.
Technical decisions, including the adoption of systemd and anything further we do with it, are made by FESCo, the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee, which is entirely elected by Fedora users and contributors. Roles on this committee are open to any Fedora packager. If you think we're doing a bad job, I encourage you to stand for election, or find and support someone who represents your views.
Some of the people voicing concerns are not Fedora packagers, so they aren't eligible to join this committee. Finding someone who is already on the committee that supports a particular viewpoint can also be problematic. Are you saying that there is no way to raise an issue with them without being a packager or having a like-minded packager voice it by proxy?
Overall strategic direction for the project is set by the Fedora Project Board, which consists of appointed and elected members. Right now, most of the appointed members are actually not Red Hat employees. The board hasn't been very active of late, and if I remember right, wasn't even involved in the systemd decision.
For clarity's sake, just what role do you see the Fedora Project Board playing in a situation like the one involving "systemd" if they weren't even involved in the decision? You hinted that they would be more involved, but is there more information you can give regarding the specific role you see it playing in the future?
If you have ideas for how user and developer feedback can be better taken into account, I'd love to hear them.
Aside from what I've already mentioned, I personally don't have anything further to add at this point other than an important parting thought.
Many are quick to point out the flaws in any given situation so let me be one who takes a moment to highlight what 's right. I think that those who are involved in Fedora and other Red Hat projects are doing a fantastic job. It's a tough and oftentimes thankless job and I greatly appreciate all you and others do. Thank you. Keep up the good work, and know that there are others who feel the same as I do. Nobody gets it right all the time - that's just the way it is. The fact you and the others involved get it right as often as you do certainly deserves praise.
Tom -- users mailing list users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
