Am 08.07.2013 22:10, schrieb lee: > Reindl Harald <h.reindl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes: > >> Am 08.07.2013 20:19, schrieb lee: >>>> i do not buy "you're simply lucky" after around 400 dist-upgrades >>>> with yum on workstations and production servers with all sort >>>> of services - i *never* rely on luck, i simply *test* and *prepare* >>>> upgrades after test them carefully on clones with note all needed steps >>> >>> I don't have a clone of my computer around to test the upgrade process >>> on. Do you have clones of all your workstations and servers which you >>> upgrade first, then replace the "original" ones with them and try them >>> out for six weeks to see if they work fine before upgrading the >>> "originals"? >> >> it is easy to setup a virtual machine with any for your >> wokrload critical software configured 1:1 like on the >> working system and test things out > > A VM is very different from the computer for which an upgrade is > pending. Testing in a VM might be helpful and can yield very different > results, so it doesn't give you anything more than an indication. no it is not in case of test if configurations of the used software are still working or needs major changes and prepare for them > Besides, I don't find it easy at all to set one up because the > networking part is extremely difficult. using VMware Workstation it is trivial to get a VM running in it's own NAT network works out of the box > Even with that solved, how would I clone the system that needs to > be upgraded 1:1 into a VM? I don't even have the disk space for that. you need not to clone the whole machine you only need to install the same packages and copy your configurations 1:1 in the VM > You're really going to extreme lengths to be able to upgrade Fedora. Do > you seriously think all users need to run their systems in VMs and have > two (mostly) identical computers around so they can upgrade? I guess > not everybody wants this, and not everybody has the means to do this. i did major Fedora upgrades often and long enough on my primary working machine - VM's are only a way to test things easily and get expierience without the danger to ruin your working system >> finally it is a matter of expierience, playing around, testing >> and learning, yes it takes time but i never re-installed any >> fedora setup since FC3 and you can be sure i damaged a lot >> in my beginning days > > Yeah I just need something where at least basic things like upgrades > work. if you try to understand how all the pieces of a distribution are working together you would realize that a dist-upgrade is not that "basic thing" - did you ever sucessful upgrade a windows from XP to Win7? i did sucessfull upgrade 20 very important Fedora machines from F9 to F18 with each step between and major changes like systemd and UsrMove - show another OS where you can manage this in any way >> there is no "this is the reference dokumentation" >> it is a matter of learn how the basic things like initramfs, bootloader >> and so on are working, > > Do they finally have good documentation for grub? i do not bother backups and snapshots are my friends >> where they are configured, how to backup them >> and how to deal with live-systems in the worst case and restore >> basic things, as long the system boots there is nothing which can not >> be repeaired and bring it to boot in case of errors is not easy for >> the typical random-user, but it is simple with expierience >> >> as said: if this is not your world of working with computers >> maybe siwtch to centOS or another LTS, i get paied to know >> and learn anything about the systems i manage > > Well, nobody is paying me to keep my computer running and up to date; > I'm the one paying for it. It's good for you to stick with something > inherently unreliable and unpredictable because otherwise you might lose > your job. It's bad for me because I would only be wasting my time and > money, and I might lose my data. understand that it is *not* unreliable and unpredictable if you are investing the time to learn and prepare if you want not invest the time you are out of luck > Your conclusion would have to be that Fedora can only reasonably be used > in a professional environment like you have at your disposal and that it > is totally unsuited for what they say that their user base is. do they? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations Our rapid release cycle is a major enabling factor in our ability to innovate. We recognize that there is also a place for long-term stability in the Linux ecosystem, and that there are a variety of community-oriented and business-oriented Linux distributions available to serve that need. However, the Fedora Project's goal of advancing free software dictates that the Fedora Project itself pursue a strategy that preserves the forward momentum of our technical, collateral, and community-building progress. Fedora always aims to provide the future, first.
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