On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Adam Miller <maxamillion@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
It would be great if you'd read the entire thread. I've admitted I wasOn Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Victor Costan <costan@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 12:59 PM, Adam Miller
> <maxamillion@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> I'm pretty neutral on B or C. I don't really care and also don't think it
>> should even remotely be a concern of ours. Not only do we not have
>> testing for it but we don't even have the building blocks in place to
>> work towards testing it. VirtualBox is bad and those who use it should
>> feel bad.[0]
>
>
> I think this attitude is detrimental to advancing Fedora's vision [1],
> particularly the "widespread" in "free culture is welcoming and widespread",
> and I will explain my reasoning below.
>
>>
>> This is probably not a popular opinion and I'm fine with that, but we
>> would have to install something that we very publicly speak out
>> against in order to test this. I'm not yet ready to throw out Fedora's
>> values for the sake of some OS X user's convenience but that's just
>> me.
>>
>> -AdamM
>>
>> [0] - https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/10/6/317
>
>
> This paragraph dismisses a lot of complex realities as "some OS X user's
> convenience".
>
> First, I have little control over what my collaborators use, and I have a
> hard requirement that I have to be able to work with them. Vagrant and
> VirtualBox are the lesser evil I could find that lets my collaborators
> quickly build a Fedora staging environment on their computers, and this is a
> hard requirement for being able to use Fedora in production. VirtualBox
> might be crappy code, so it violates the "First" core value [2], but unlike
> the altrenatives, at least it doesn't violate "Freedom".
>
> Second, a user that is interested in Fedora's Vagrant images *wants* to
> deploy Fedora somewhere. I wouldn't care about the Vagrant images if I
> wouldn't plan to have Fedora in my production system. If I can run Fedora in
> Vagrant, using VirtualBox, on an OS X development machine, then I'll end up
> deploying it to many VMs or physical boxes, when I ship my software.
>
> For a multitude of non-trivial but boring reasons, I am stuck using OS X on
> my dev machine for the near future. I use Fedora 22 in production, however,
> meaning that I installed it on ~10 physical / virtual machines, and that
> most of my computation happens on a Fedora machine. The Vagrant VirtualBox
> image for Fedora 23 is currently broken, and until that gets resolved, I
> won't be able to switch my projects to Fedora 23.
>
> I really, really want to use Fedora. However, if it ever gets too painful,
> I'll have to switch away. In that case, my collaborators will not be exposed
> to Fedora at all anymore, and my computation will be handled by something
> else.
>
> Please don't dismiss people like me. I think that network effects will lose
> you more users than you think.
wrong and apologized for it multiple times.
-AdamM
Sorry about that, and thank you!
Victor
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