On Sun, Oct 02, 2022 at 12:49:04PM +0000, Artem S. Tashkinov wrote: > On 10/2/22 12:18, Theodore Ts'o wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 01, 2022 at 02:58:04PM +0000, Artem S. Tashkinov wrote: > >> > >> My expectations are actually quite low: > >> > >> * A central place to collect bugs (yeah, bugzilla) > >> * Proper up to date components (they don't change too often, so there's > >> not a lot of work to be done - you can refresh them probably every 12-24 > >> months and it's gonna be totally OK) > >> * An ability to CC the relevant people/mailing lists (this is the only > >> serious missing feature) > >> > >> That's it. It's a billion times better than random emails sent to random > >> mailing lists. Signing up once is easier that to keep track of whom and > >> where you've emailed or not. And of course it's a ton lot easier to find > >> the existing bug reports. > > > > First of all, some of the components do CC the relevant mailing lists > > automatically. And this is the part of Bugzilla which is hand-hacked > > and has no, zero, nada support upstream. I'll defer to Konstantin > > about how easy it is to keep that working. > > > > Secondly, not everyone is happy with getting an e-mail message sent to > > a mailing list that has a lot of bugzilla metadata associated with it, > > and depending on how they respond, the response might not make it back > > to bugzilla. > > I've mentioned it a dozen times already - you're unhappy with emails > from bugzilla? Go there and unsubscribe. It takes a minute and we're > talking as if it's the actual issue we are dealing with. It's not. > Bugzilla maintenance and its up-to-date status are the issues. > > > > > Finally, in the absense of someone to actually close bugzilla entries > > and do other necessary grooming, the bugzilla database will rapidly > > become useless --- in which case, you might as well have a web form > > that just helps the user send e-mail to the mailing list, and hope it > > doesn't become a SPAM magnet. > > The current ill-maintained semi-functional bugzilla has proven to be a > ton more useful than random mailing lists no sane person can keep track > of. Bug "reports", i.e. random emails are neglected and forgotten. LKML > is the worst of them probably. > > > > >> Bugzilla as it is works nearly perfectly. We have a number of developers > >> who don't want to touch it or get emails from it - it's their right. > >> However it would be madness to take it from users. That will make filing > >> and following up on bug reports an absolutely poor experience for > >> absolute most users. > > > > At the moment, developers aren't following up on the bug reports. > > There is some debate as to why. Is it because users who can't figure > > out how to send e-mail, and who send web-form based e-mails send low > > quality bug reports that can't be easily responded to unless someone > > is paid $$$ and/or has the patience of a saint? Is it because > > components aren't being gatewayed to mailing lists? > > This is not always true, some of them do, some of them actually check > new bug reports and do a tremendous job at helping people, e.g. Mario > Limonciello who helps resolve bugs which are not even his direct > responsibility. BTW, I'll now CC him since he's so active over there. > Would be great if he chimed in. > > > And if we force developers to get Bugzilla spam whether they want it > > not, and they said, "absolutely not", is it there right to have the > > mailing list gateway disabled --- and if so, what does that do to the > > user experience? Thats basically the situation we have right now. > > As I've said many times already: bugzilla must be an opt-out, not opt-in > experience/option. > > Let's subscribe the past six months of developers using git commits and > if someone doesn't like getting emails they go to the website and > unsubscribe _once_ which takes a minute. This is a non-issue I've no > clue why we're dwelling on it. I'm not sure that would be legal, at least in the EU. > Let's operate with some examples: > > Bugzilla gets around two dozen bug reports weekly which encompass at > most thirty emails, which equals to four emails daily on average. > > LKML alone sees up to a hundred emails _daily_. > > Getting worked up about it? I'm dumbfounded to be honest. -- Regards, Laurent Pinchart
