On 1/30/07, M. Fioretti <mfioretti@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 22:48:20 PM -0800, Paul Lesniewski > (paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) wrote: > > > > Actually, I *did* understand it and acknowledge it, _and_ then I > > > said it was no excuse. No need to insist on this. > > > > I insist because although it might not be an excuse, it IS a factor > > that should be given consideration instead of just writing off such > > situations as evidence that that person, and worse, all FOSS > > developers, are assholes and nothing more. That kind of black and > > white thinking helps no one. > > Paul, > > I could only took a really quick glance to this answers of yours > because I have to leave for the office right now. > > >From what I have read, I believe that we are much closer than it may > seem. Here (also to not overload the list) I will only say that: > > * sure, black and white thinking helps no one, and I am perfectly aware > of this > * but black and white thinking *is* exactly what all the rest of the world > does, especially when these one-in-a-thousand episode happen in public > For the last time: what I am saying is that these situations *ARE* > taken as evidence by ALL NON GEEKS, not me, that "all FOSS developers are > a**". Right or wrong, this is what actually happens... So WHOSE responsibility it this to fix? The "geeks" have to be 100% well behaved at all times because non-geeks jump on any chance to prove them as all assholes? I hardly think so (that's not even possible, as we are all humans, not robots!). I think it is much more accurate to say that non-geeks are often intimidated and perhaps somewhat fearful of how overwhelming the tech world is (as humans sadly often seem to be when confronted with things they don't immediately understand), and given an opportunity to slam those people somehow helps them mitigate that fear/intimidation. That's a social phenomenon that is not limited to tech culture. But that's THEIR issue, and blaming FOSS developers for not pandering to people who wrongly think in all black and white is misguided, and moreover cheapens what FOSS developers do because you co-opt the goals of their work. (see "blaming the victim") Saying "right or wrong, this is what actually happens" implies that FOSS developers work for some company whose bottom line is selling widgets to customers, but I STRONGLY believe otherwise and think that that kind of thinking, as much as it has permeated FOSS culture, corrupts the more meaningful goals and ideas of FOSS culture. And what about all those people on Digg who surely are somewhat tech-savvy who raved up a storm about what a crime this all was? They might not be intimidated or afraid of geek culture -- I think of that kind of scene as one-upmanship gone mad on the Internet (which is definitely a big problem on the net IMO)... perhaps we should save that psychoanalysis for another time. :-) Back to the point, my posts have been intended exactly to say "hey, this is a one-in-a-thousand kind of thing and all you people overblowing the situation need to think about this in a less knee-jerk kind of way." Ideally, I shouldn't even have to do that - it's a shame that people are so quick to make anything a huge battle. > * and it is very dangerous, IMO, if FOSS activists underestimate the > gravity of this, because FOSS is needed for a better society I am VERY MUCH NOT interested in building a "better" society that is premised upon kowtowing to elements that are also not going to embark upon a mission of genuine open-mindedness and trying to actually understand other people's perspectives. If the rest of this "society" of which you speak is going to go into the project with fear and intimidation and consequential condemnation of geeks or any other people, then I say your society is doomed to failure, or at least to replicate the sometimes very ugly world we live in today. Geeks alone making sure they are 100% well-behaved will not and can not make that project work. (Yes, even geeks, however, probably need to make better effort sometimes toward that "better" society, just as almost every human does...) > I will try to answer in detail to your message tonight, but I'd > really, prefer doing it privately. I really appreciate that you care > so much, but we are seriously starting to overload the list, aren't > we? Off-topic postings on lists are not entirely unwelcome, as long as they are tangentially related to the list. I am enjoying the latter part of this discussion, and I think it is very much related tangentially to this or most any other list in the FOSS world. If all the list members are actually *THAT* bothered by this thread, we could stop I suppose, but for now, I've just prefaced the subject with "OT". ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 -- squirrelmail-users mailing list Posting Guidelines: http://www.squirrelmail.org/wiki/MailingListPostingGuidelines List Address: squirrelmail-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx List Archives: http://news.gmane.org/thread.php?group=gmane.mail.squirrelmail.user List Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=2995 List Info: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/squirrelmail-users
