I get a little biased in these types of discussions. I'm a programmer and a system geek, so I say if you are affected by something jump in and help out. It's there, it's free, it's not that hard, and even if you can't program, you can learn some basics and help a programmer out. Overall it will help anyone understand their system better (not just the things they see, but the whole system, computer and OS inside and out). I guess I see it like this. We all obviously use Linux, and we all appear to use Red Hat. So, to me, that means we have some responsibility in that community considering the costs involved for many of us. I find that I can be more productive on a Linux machine than I can on my Windows (with the proper tools) so I'm all about making it friendly for everyone and geeky for anyone who wants it to be. I want to be able to develop applications for Linux, and be able to think about making that application on Windows, instead of feel like I have to. Is that sometime off in the future...yes I'd say so. But, I feel this is better accomplished through modules and add-ons. I have a lot of things I would like to do here, and I think Fedora is great(...now if I can just find time..it always seems to out run me). On a more general note of where the question was going. I think users and testers and programmers can all help push fixes. I also think it comes down to the way anyone is approached or approaches someone. We all need to keep in mind that unless you are talking to someone from Red Hat they are not getting paid to work on this stuff. They do it for their enjoyment. Which believe it or not has pushed Linux itself www.kernel.org good ol' Linus (which I know we all know). But, I think keeping that all in mind makes us ask questions with a different tone. Maybe we don't have dollars here and there to push in someones face, but simple gestures are really all it takes. Developers want their work to be good, so if there is a problem most are more than happy to fix it. I think Red Hat will have more than enough developers working on Fedora to guide these groups. Just like the kernel every project needs guidance. Each piece needs someone who can control the flow well. I think these folks will come from RH in most cases (according to what I read on the Fedora site). Whether they are the best people for the job or not will only be decided in time, and if they are not, then someone will have to make some good decisions. But, I still believe we have to keep in mind that RH states on the Fedora web site that their commercial software will be based on Fedora. This means they have an interest in it being good stable software. Fedora will also have a release cycle. So, use releases if you are burdened by untested code (I will only use release versions unless testing). I see Fedora as a way to shift some responsibility. For instance, I use RH9. I paid absolutely nothing for it. I love it more than any of my other OS. I like it better than AIX, Solaris, or XP. I realize RH has put an investment into the applications and packaging. I can't thank them enough. But, at the same time, I understand that a company can't front all the costs for everything, and I don't expect them to. Red Hat has employees, and those employees have families to feed. Forget the stock holders for a moment. Those same employees are going to be working on Fedora. I imagine many of them will be spending most of their time working on Fedora, and the rest the value adds, commercial things, and tech support. Their pay check should be incentive for them to perform. Enter users like myself who pay nothing most of the time when dealing with Linux. I don't feel like I should want to point many fingers if I'm not willing to pitch in a bit. That is where I think the community comes into play. Are we willing to say we like Red Hat, or do we start using SuSE, Debian, or Slackware? I believe Red Hat has done a great job, and with the exception of SuSE who I put on the same level as RH, I believe RH is the best Distro available. So, I am willing to pitch in when I can: answer a question here or there, look at some code if I need to, update it and create a patch if I need to (for things I use mainly...so I'm selfish..:-( bad quality I'd say, but I only have so much time). Anyways, to use my favorite analogy to Fedora, Netbeans. Netbeans is sponsered by Sun Microsystems. It is also a free open source product. I use it day in and day out to write Java software. I think it is one of the best IDEs available. I like tooo many things about it to mention. I can't say anything bad about it, though some things I wish could be different. But, all in all, compare it to anything else, it still shines. Compare it to Jbuilder (rather costly). I would use Netbeans any day. Compare it to Eclipse..I think it runs circles around it (my own opinion). The only thing I think Jbuilder has better deals with the files Netbeans uses for it's GUI designer, but that is a small thing, and it can eventually be worked out. Netbeans rolls out patches in a very timely manner. You will also notice that many of the developers have .... Sun.com at the end of their emails. This means they are a paid programmer. Which is a good thing. This means some where there is someone putting together a little upfront design effort to make things role a little smoother (generally speaking). But, don't let that fool you about open source projects without corperate backers. Though, corporate backing is good because it means there is someone who is devoting time to working on the project, and they are being paid to do it. Just to say it, Apache is a non-profit, but you will find corporations using it, and some contributing handsomely. I believe we will see patches flying out of Fedora. I may be wrong, but the only reason I can imagine them not doing so will be because of some sick restrictions Red Hat could lay on the projects. I don't see that happening, but if it did, that would be a reason for slow response time. In general open source projects fix bugs faster than commercial ones, or this has been my experience rather. It will all depend on the model used. Some company's like Seapine software are an exception to this rule. They produce a source control system called Surround which I believe is better than any other. They have fixed bugs and released upgrades rather rapidly. We have been beta testers at different times for them. You'd have to check it out to see what I mean. Clients on Mac, Windows, and Linux. Side tracked....but it is good. Also, something else to keep in mind. Most of the applications we use on Linux are open source. Which means, they have a home of their own. Patches are usually going to depend on those developers anyways. So, probably an important thing to remember is that Fedora projects will include a lot of code reviewing. i.e. OpenSSH will be reviewed by developers responsible for the section that package fits into, then there will be collaboration with the actual OpenSSH project. You can definitely expect this to be the case. Code review and collaboration will catch more bugs than you can imagine. This is a plus. Anyways, those are a bunch of my jumbled thoughts. I hope this is coherent enough for the debate. It is 11:39PM US EST at the moment in good ol'NC. :-D. I won't assume too much however until I have a milestone to throw FUD against, so in all fairness....I say we wait on a release and give it a while. :-) Wade -----Original Message----- From: redhat-list-admin@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:redhat-list-admin@xxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rodolfo J. Paiz Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 10:40 PM To: redhat-list@xxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Thoughts on Fedora At 20:15 10/25/2003, you wrote: >I don't agree with the notion that some how Fedora is going to be any >less stable than the "free" RH9 many use on this list now. Neither do I. However, to give you something to think about, the "other" argument against Fedora according to some people is that you cannot be sure that "the community" will roll out patches and security updates in a timely fashion. That is a valid concern, since this early in the game we do not yet know how that will be done and speculation is to be expected. What thoughts would you have on that subject? (Wade or anyone else.) -- Rodolfo J. Paiz rpaiz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:redhat-list-request@xxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list -- redhat-list mailing list unsubscribe mailto:redhat-list-request@xxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/redhat-list
