rc> Thus before the big bang is perfectly rc> valid whether we could perceive it or not. ts> Not really. It's as meaningless as asking ts> what's north of the North Pole. That's an interesting point. If you stand at the North Pole where all lines of reference converge, there is still Galactic North and True North if one's reference frame is Magnetic North. There are no privelaged frames of references UNLESS there is only ONE singular frame of reference. The Big Bang is a singularity event, there were no reference points in existance until the Big Bang, ergo you're so right, even saying "before the Big Bang" isn't even wrong. :) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php