On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 00:29 +0000, Nathan Rixham wrote: > Manuel Lemos wrote: > > Hello, > > > > on 02/16/2010 08:02 PM Nathan Rixham said the following: > >>>> I need to find a skilled PHP dev, UK based, with long term availability, > >>>> in the short term to join me on a project and ultimately be prepared to > >>>> take over the project and "own" it. Remote contract work w/ occasional > >>>> meetings on site. > >>> You may want to try searching PHP professionals with the specific skills > >>> you need here: > >>> > >>> http://www.phpclasses.org/professionals/country/uk/ > >>> > >>> Or you may want to try to post a job here: > >>> > >>> http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/ > >>> > >> Manuel, > >> > >> I'm sure there are some very talented people on your site (and in the > >> community) - one slight problem though, I won't use you're website under > >> any circumstance (been there, done that). > >> > >> You make every interaction with your site a horrible, painful > >> interaction that is purely there to get as many adverts as you can in > >> front of people, so that you can bleed every cent possible from the hard > >> work and effort of PHP developers and innocent users. In short, you take > >> advantage of your users, members and the PHP community - I've never seen > >> such a bold and ongoing attempt to profit on the hard work and good will > >> of PHP developers, ever, period. > > > > There seems to be a misunderstanding here. > > > > The PHPClasses.org site was created by me in 1999 with the purpose of > > making it easy to distribute my PHP classes so others could test them > > and send bug reports and suggestions. > > > > Then I thought it would be nice to let others also share their code > > there to do the same, if they want of course. Back then, there was no > > advertising or any sort of monetization of the site. > > > > Meanwhile the site has grown a lot. Now it has over 850.000 registered > > users. Initially it could run on a shared hosting, but since many years > > ago it needs dedicated servers. Hiring dedicated servers costs good > > money as you know. > > > > In 2002 I had to choose, either to dedicate to the site full time to > > moderate the new site content and develop the features that it needed to > > better serve the PHP developers, or shut the site down for good because > > I would not have the time to take a day job and maintain the site at the > > same time. > > > > > > I took the chance and decided to work on the site full time. But I had > > to find some way to make it generate revenue, basically turn it into a > > full time business. > > > > My first option was to provide a package of premium services for a small > > subscription fee. I placed a survey asking the users about services they > > could be willing to pay. > > > > http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/10-Paid-site-services-survey.html > > > > That was a good idea but it would take me a lot of time to develop the > > planned services. So the alternative option that was available was to > > put advertising. > > > > I do not like advertising because it slows down page loading and > > distracts users from the real content. But over the time, if it was not > > for advertising the site would have been shut down a long time ago. > > > > After a lot of time and development effort, in 2007 I finally was able > > to launch the planned premium services. > > > > http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/68-Launched-premium-services-for-PHP-developers.html > > > > Premium services help in generating nice revenue, but honestly it is not > > a big deal. Not only I have to keep the advertising, I also need to seek > > other sources of revenue. > > > > To continue to make the site useful for PHP developers, I decided to > > develop a dedicated job board for PHP professionals that was launched in > > 2008. > > > > http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/79-New-PHP-dedicated-job-site.html > > > > As you may figure by now, the site requires continuous development to > > address the user needs. For instance, some site users complained about > > the site design. > > > > In 2008 I started developing a system that would let designers propose > > new designs and users try the designs in different pages. When the > > system was finished in late 2009, a contest was launched. > > > > The winning design won a USD $3.000 money prize (and a big elePHPant). > > The new design will replace the current in a few days, once we make a > > few adjustments. The money prize comes mostly from the revenue of > > premium subscriptions. > > > > I am sorry if you feel that what I have done and will continue doing is > > a bad thing and I am just taking advantage of the site users. > > > > I suppose you do not work for free. So you cannot expect me to work for > > free as well, as we all have families and have to put food on the table. > > There are no miracles. > > > > If what I did with PHPClasses.org is bad, my alternative is to close the > > site because I cannot work on the site and have a day job at the same time. > > > > > >> And then, you have the good thought to come on here and SPAM the hell > >> out of your site at every opportunity. > > > > What you call spam, I call word of mouth. You have expressed a need. I > > know of a resource that can help you solve you problem, so I told you > > about it. If telling about something that could solve your problem is > > spam, I am apologise for trying to help you. > > > > > >> ps: clicked the two links > >> > >> http://www.phpclasses.org/professionals/country/uk/ > >> All I can see at this one is a list of "O.... ....." which isn't much > >> good to me or the developer that's supposed to represent - and surprise > >> surprise to view any of there information I have to register, sign up > >> and buy a premium subscription - so no, no information there that was > >> off use at all in any way. > > > > That is not accurate. There are premium subscribers and non-premium > > subscribers. If you are a premium subscriber you can have full access to > > the contact details of all listed professionals. If you are not a > > premium subscriber, you can only be contacted by employers that are also > > premium subscribers. > > > > You do not necessarily have to pay to become a premium subscriber. For > > instance all nominees of the innovation award get a free life time > > premium subscription. That is one of the ways the site compensates users > > that submit innovative classes that you probably not find elsewhere. > > > > http://www.phpclasses.org/award/innovation/ > > > > http://www.phpclasses.org/winners/ > > > > Anyway, premium subscriptions are inexpensive. They just cost USD > > $5/month (minimum 3 months) or less ($4/month if paid annually). > > > > You also get other benefits besides having full access to whole PHP > > professionals listed in the site. You can check it out here if you want > > to know about other benefits. > > > > http://www.phpclasses.org/premium/ > > > > > >> http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/ > >> And here I can pay $75, $60 or "Very delayed - Job announcements that > >> are notified first only to featured professionals, and then much later > >> to all other users after 23 days for only 7 days." - think I'll give > >> that one a miss. > > > > I am not sure what you are complaining. Posting jobs in many well known > > sites that are not even focused in PHP, costs many hundreds of dollars. > > > > Even if you consider the PHPClasses.org too expensive, it still lets you > > can post your job for free. In that case, all the premium subscribers > > get access to the jobs much earlier, and everybody else gets access to > > the job for free during the last 7 days of the 30 during which the job > > is exposed. > > > > Anyway, I find $75 very inexpensive, especially when compared to what > > most companies are willing to pay as salaries. $75 is just a few hours > > of paid PHP consulting work in most PHP companies. Unless you are > > looking for a very short term employee, you will have to pay a lot more > > than $75 to hire a good PHP professional. > > > > > >> Thank you very much for all you're help and sorry you couldn't bleed > >> some money out of me on this occasion - perhaps you'll manage with > >> you're next spam to the list. > > > > Personally I regret that you need to be hostile and rude when I was > > legitimately trying to help you. I do not recall ever seeing you here. > > You seem to act as if I hurt you in someway in the past. If I ever did > > that, I sincerely apologise. > > > > Anyway, I just think you probably are misunderstanding my work. I hope > > it does not upset you that I carry on working on projects that I believe > > to benefit the PHP developers in general. > > > > > > I'm unsure now TBH > > 1/2 of me is reading your response and thinking; sure sounds fair; > > the other half me is thinking "if I took all your opensource work (and > other peoples) then wrapped it up in a site filled with adverts, then > piggy backed on paid services like job postings and premium members etc > to it - so that I could make a living; would that be a good thing to do > / would it be "cool"? then counter thought of if those people > contributed the code. > > in all honesty the following are the sticking point that make it hard > for me to decide if I was right in my earlier response: > > 1: that the "sign up to get the class" is even part of the equation > 2: that developer listings are visible to premium only peopl > 3: that users can't delete an account > 4: the amount of adverts > > Certain things like having paid Job postings on there > are fair enough and I'll remove from the equation; just the 4 things > above that I can't decided over. > > Maybe I am misunderstanding, perhaps I was a bit harsh - I would be > interested to know if it is a "full time job"; obviously we can't have > you working for nothing whilst you're family suffers. > > It bothered me that I may have flamed you for no reason, so I took > council from a few people - one said I was definitely right to do so; > one wasn't sure after your response; and the other said "opensource > people shouldn't play that game" (ie monetize / pull a salary from > contributed work). I'm wondering why it is that people are unsure about > your website, yet see sourceforge and github etc with there adverts as okay. > > Regards, > > Nathan > I think the design probably doesn't lend itself to the best of perceptions, but as Manuel explained, that is soon to change. I myself do find the site confusing to navigate, which doesn't always help when looking for a PHP class to fit in a project that's already going to a tight deadline. I wasn't aware of the other parts of the site, but I can understand a paid model for the job section, which essentially makes it behave a little like an agency. With charging for the open source items, that does seem a little old-fashioned. What about allowing the contributors to offer up paid support for their code, with the site taking a cut. Charging for the support and documentation of an open-source system is a model that seems quite popular in the open source world (look at a lot of Linux distros, for example). You'll still have people being a bit tight and not wanting to pay, but there will be more people (I think) that would want to pay for the documentation if it was reasonably priced. In fact, a system like that could possibly improve the state of documentation for some systems. Thanks, Ash http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk
