On 8/19/2008 8:11 PM India Time, _Stut_ wrote:
Sorry for the top-post, and please don't be offended by the following...
Much as you would probably like to think it's a good business model,
bidding low for projects
I would be bidding low? Where did I say that?
Currently I am not at all bidding on those projects as I know I wouldn't
be able to do them. Once I know that I will get help where I get stuck
doing them, I would very much bid. And bid high as well.
> and then expecting other developers to help you
When you say "expecting others", it sounds as if I have invoked some
11th commandment that "php developers must help me." Nothing like that.
It was an offer to help me on email against tiny gesture payments that
would at most fetch a glass of beer, just like your friends give you a
tiny treat when you help them out in something.
> for even less
again. "even less" implies that there is some high rate at which a php
member would help people, and I am pleading to him to help me at a rate
lower than that. Nothing like that. Firstly, there is no rate for
helping in this ng. It is all free. Secondly, I don't think anybody here
bother to negotiate payments with anyone against help. I thought someone
would help me and would get a tiny unasked payment. As I quoted, Java ng
is already doing it. May be, php ng would also do it some day.
> is not sustainable.
no problemo. Then I wouldn't be able to do it through php. I would start
using java or other languages in which somebody could help me.
I appreciate your position but
you need to understand that freelance PHP developers charge what they
do because that's what the market will pay.
They can continue charging that. Where am I coming in picture? I can't
afford their rates so I can't use their professional help. If I get
help, I would bid against those freelance PHP developers in the same
range and market would absorb me also.
I've recently taken on 2 PHP contractors and even though there's only
20 GBP difference in their daily rates one is miles better than the
other, to the point where I'm having to check everything the slightly
cheaper one is doing and I've found a number of killer bugs that would
have caused major issues had they gone live. The point I'm making is
that you get what you pay for and you're kinda illustrating why.
I understand quality. I don't intend to do shabby job for my clients. I
need php veterans, that is why I posted this thread here.
> Unfortunately the general market out there doesn't value quality over
> "it works" so the gap between the excellent and the downright awful is
> pretty small.
No, no. Worry not on this account. One can't "make-believe" in code
development. It either runs or doesn't run. Nobody can create a fake
code that gives appearance of running and producing output but actually
doing nothing really.
The bottom line is that you shouldn't be taking on work that either
you can't do or you can't afford to sub-contract. Appealing to the
community for cheap help is just not cricket!
Nobody is "appealing". Nobody mentioned "cheap rate" as if seeking discount.
There are freelancer somewhere. Of course, several regulars of this ng
must be doing freelancing elsewhere and earning good money.
But I am sure that this ng has several veterans who don't do
freelancing. They are here helping other just due to their passion for
php and due to their helpful nature. If they start freelancing, they
would also earn good money, but freelancing needs its own commitments
and overheads that they might not feel like bothering about due to their
existing commitments. I come handy for them. I chase the projects, I
bid, I commit, I interact with clients. The php veteran here wouldn't
need to go into all that. but he would just give reply to my one or two
emails, may be jot down 5 lines of code and send to me, and he is done.
Remaining work is still upon me to finish and to feed to the client.
So, the php veteran still has his existing free life, and he just spend
5 minutes for me. I thought that some of you might find it worth giving
a thought.
"You wouldn't go broke on not getting such amounts" - every penny
counts when you're a freelancer, as does every minute. Some will be
able to afford to lose a few dollars here and there due to non-
payment, but others (in fact the ones likely to take up your offer if
you can find any) probably can't.
Tch. I was just telling that even in the worst case when all your fears
come true and I run away with your $20, you will still have all you
have. The purpose of writing it was not to confess that I would do it,
but to say that I wouldn't do it as it would make me loose your further
help.
I hope you take this the way it's intended - as some friendly advice -
and not as an attack of any kind. I applaud anyone who's embarking on
a freelance career since it's a pretty risky route to take, but you
need to approach it in a sustainable way if it's going to be a
success. If you can make a success of freelancing you can do very well
out of it so I wish you the best of luck.
-Stut
Thanks.
--
V
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