I downloaded the free photokit try-out and the grain filter hardly produced any. I've been experimenting making grainy prints using a sheet of random black dots imported into Photoshop and combined with a mono image using the screen function. I then converted to two tones using the contrast control (to 100%), the brightness control altered the cut-off. Not quite right because black areas have a stipple to them, so I'm still experimenting. Chris http://www.chrisspages.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: owner-photoforum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-photoforum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Emily L. Ferguson Sent: 24 May 2004 00:48 To: List for Photo/Imaging Educators - Professionals - Students Subject: Re: grain vs. noise It's interesting to hear people talk about this. Jeff, just what makes the noise uglier than the grain? And Tina, those are interesting resources. I wonder how long it will be before we don't have to mess with these things, the cameras just deal with it. -- Emily L. Ferguson mailto:elf@xxxxxxxx 508-563-6822 New England landscapes, wooden boats and races, press photography http://www.vsu.cape.com/~elf/