On Jan 22, 2016 23:59, "David E. Wheeler" <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > On Jan 22, 2016, at 9:44 AM, Geoff Winkless <pgsqladmin@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > >> BTW, I am one of those “through someone else” people of which you speak. > > > > Excellent! Then can you ask the person for whom you are "someone else" > > to explain exactly which parts of the projected CoC are unacceptable? > > Because the only way in which I can see it doesn't align with the > > Contributor Covenant is that the CoC doesn't consider someone's > > personal opinions, either private or expressed outside the Postgresql > > arena, to be the responsibility of the Postgres team. > > If this is the latest: > > http://postgresql.nabble.com/CoC-Final-td5882762.html > > Then: > > > * We are tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views. > > This point allows anyone who has been reported for a violation to say that they simply have an opposing point of view, and why can’t you respect that? It’s an out for anyone in violation. > > > * Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free > > of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks. > > This allows a violator to claim ignorance. The “I didn’t know I was being harassing!” ‘defense’ works. It plays into the “geeks are bad at social” fallacy, and completely ignores that a lot of abusers intentionally craft “oh I didn’t know” stories/personas to get away with their abuse. > > > * When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants > > should always assume good intentions. > > This allows the “I didn’t realize my tone was off, can’t you assume I have good intentions?” defense. > > > * Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a > > pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be > > tolerated. > > This should point to a policy for handling violations. What does “will not be tolerated” mean? It needn’t be spelled out in the CoC, but it must be spelled out and pointed at from the CoC. > > This document sounds like something written by well-meaning folks who don’t want to be misunderstood. There is a lot here to let violators protect themselves in the event of a reported violation, but little to make vulnerable people feel safe. It is the latter that needs to be the message of the CoC, not the former. I agree. However the CoC needs to protect all, while there are some clear lines of conduct that everyone should adhere to for eg. Your calling of the group, a group of white people would clearly be IMO out of line, while there are some shady situations where the meaning from one end could be misunderstood by other and it may not fall under the realms of a violation. We need a CoC to protect both situations. If you have ideas or suggestions that can make the CoC better, I think it would be good to share that in the other CoC thread. > > Those of us who fear offending without meaning to, or being misunderstood, can best serve the aims of a CoC -- openness and safety -- by being open to learning from our mistakes rather than trying to defend them on the basis of intent. > > Best, > > David > -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
