But, Karen, you've changed your point. Nobody in this thread said that
there is anything wrong with end users making feature requests. In fact,
I quite clearly said the opposite. A good developer welcomes
constructive criticism.
End users don't have a right to demand features. They should make sure
their criticism is constructive in nature. And end users should
understand that an open source developer can't be all things to all people.
Developers have ethical obligations too, IMO. Being a volunteer doesn't
absolve them from accessibility obligations, for example. But again,
that would be "best effort". If you're putting out a live distro, the
ethical thing to do is to try really, really hard to support braille.
But if you can't, you can't.
On 09/22/2015 09:56 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
Why yes, in part my question was rhetorical.
However, I do not understand the volunteer factor at all.
Perhaps I am an innocent, but the individuals spending time on this
software freely by choice are doing this so that someone other than
themselves can make use of their work.
Is not this the case?
Otherwise, you could perfectly well play with the programs at your house
for your own use, and subject to only your own ideas of functionality.
If my guess is correct, the individuals willingly volunteering intend
for someone to use the program, then does it not logically follow that
those others, using their own computers, unique in how they
learn...because all humans are different, will share the results of
their efforts?
certainly if your work is quality, many will praise your abilities by
supporting your work by using it...and as they bring in their
individual ways of using the software, they will ask for more.
all of this, at least to me as an outsider seems sort of apparent if
you are going to create software, and share it with anyone.
My point is that I do not understand why the volunteer factor carries
any weight...the nature of volunteering is freedom of choice...is not
that true? If you do not wish your work subjected to public
expecting, and requests for improvement, why share it at all?
Again just curious,
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, John G Heim wrote:
I am going to guess that you didn't really intend to ask me why a
developer can't be all things to all people. That, obviously, would be
impossible. But going on what I take to be the intent of your
question, I'm going to say that we all need to keep in mind that the
developers are volunteers. They have a right to decide for themselves
what the best use of their time is.
You say, "Imagine a person who really needed braille being told that
the developers cannot be all things to all people" as if that is
obviously wrong. But it's not. It would depend on how hard it is to
include braille support.
An ethical developer does his best to listen to constructive
criticism. He does his best not to exclude anyone. But there is a
nearly infinite call on his time. I am guessing you haven't gotten
into volunteering as a developer, right? There is no limit to the
number of requests you'll get. No matter how hard you work, someone
will ask for more. In fact, I'd say the better job you do, the more
likely it is that you'll be asked for more.
On 09/22/2015 10:39 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
Why not?
The images already exist.
The usb stick booting issue is an even greater reason to keep the cd
option around.
i will give you another example.
I am not a braille user, and if one follows the numbers most
individuals experiencing sight loss are not using braille either.
Less than 8% or so are using braille.
However I would guess this flavor of Linux is designed to work with
braille, even if the majority of its users in theory might not use
it,
or given the expense of a display, might not have access to it.
Factor in those individuals who use speech, but not braille, and who
not
experience sight loss, but have a print disability..like dyslexia.
Given cd roms are far more common, and the majority of the computing
population who might desire accessibility might find one, how are the
developers serving the majority by not keeping this option available?
Imagine a person who really needed braille being told that the
developers cannot be all things to all people?
Just a theoretical comparison.
You serve more people in theory by keeping the cd images as an option
than not if that makes sense.
Again Just my thoughts,
Karen
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, John G Heim wrote:
> Good point. I'd say perhaps that the real problem wouldn't be that
> these machines have CD-ROM drives but rather that a lot of older
> machines won't boot from a USB stick. My scanner machine is like
> that. I have a linux machine with an ISA hardware speech synth and a
> SCSI flatbed scanner attached and it won't boot from a thumb
drive. I
> would hate to give up that machine.
> > > On the other hand, I think it is reasonable for the developers of
> talking arch to say that they can't be all things to all people. You
> will just have to use another flavor of linux.
> > > On 09/22/2015 09:07 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> > Just an aside on the cd media issue.
> > Perhaps you have not considered that Linux is not simply a north
> > American effort. additionally even in North America, a person
just
> > starting out with Linux might get their hardware second hand.
for
> > example from any of the many freecycle groups around the globe.
> > Those machines will still use cds, which is why they are second
hand.
> > You can still purchase blank cd media as well.
> > So do you really want to prevent a person from trying this >
> distribution
> > if they are starting at the bottom based on the thinking of
those who
> > have used it for a while?
> > I am simply speaking in general here. If I were making this
> > decision, I
> > would keep a cd simply because there can still be an audience
for > > it.
> > Just my totally from the sidelines thought.
> > Karen
> > > > > > On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, Tony Baechler wrote:
> > > > > I'm not going to quote Kyle's very long reply here, but
I'll > > > address
> > > the highlights:
> > > > 1. No, I wasn't complaining. I was simply pointing out
> > observations.
> > > I apologize if it came across as complaining, but I tried to
keep
> > > things as unbiased as possible.
> > > > 2. My live CD is meant as a rescue CD since there currently
isn't > > > > a
> > > Debian rescue CD, let alone a talking one. One can install
it to a
> > > hard drive if they wish, but that's not the purpose. As I also
> > > mentioned but you failed to address, Debian is eventually
going to
> > get
> > > this fixed and it will talk, so there will be no need for my CD.
> > > > 3. I was not complaining about or requesting CD media.
Some > > > > people
> > > have mentioned this and older machines might not have DVD
readers.
> > > That's it. Personally, I agree with you that CD media is
probably > > > no
> > > longer necessary.
> > > My live CD is at the max of 700 MB now and is still missing
> > > packages
> > > I want to add. I'm faced with the choice of freezing
development > > > or
> > > growing to DVD media.
> > > > No, I won't join your IRC channel and no, I won't bother
with the
> > > sound card issue. It is a Sound Blaster Audigy and the issue
has
> > been
> > > fixed in Debian, so borrow their ALSA configuration. I did
read > > > the
> > > blog before downloading the CD image several months back.
> > Eventually,
> > > I'll take another look at Arch, but not for a while.
> > > > Finally, not once did I say Arch is bad or what you're
doing is
> > bad.
> > > I have suggested Talking Arch a few times, but people weren't
> > > interested. For the few people who only want the console for
> > whatever
> > > reason, Arch is a good alternative and I didn't say
otherwise. I
> > > simply pointed out why I personally can't recommend it. I
look at
> > > several issues, such as what I previously mentioned. There
is no
> > > public bug tracker specific to Talking Arch, there are only two
> > > developers, support email didn't get answered, etc.
> > > That is understandable given the volunteer nature of the
project,
> > but
> > > does unfortunately mean I can't recommend it to the masses. I'm
> > never
> > > close-minded, so when you feel this issues have been addressed,
> > please
> > > post here or contact me and I'll take another look.
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > --
> John Heim, jheim@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, skype:john.g.heim
> _______________________________________________
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> >
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