Oh Karen, if only the wider world had your common sense. I have lurked on this list for many years, back when I used to have fun with Speakup and linux and an Accent SA. The shine came off that system for me years ago, but it wouldn’t be the last time I worked with a volunteer project. The prevailing thought process amongst this kind of project is the following. “I designed this project for my own personal use, I decide what comes next.” The guy won’t implement anything that is different to his own workflow, even if a dominant number of his users asks for it. Never mind what happens if he finds himself in a bind and needs help, he doesn’t think this way and continues the slow alienation of his user base. And we except it, after all, it’s volunteer software, right? > On Sep 22, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Karen Lewellen <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Why yes, in part my question was rhetorical. > However, I do not understand the volunteer factor at all. > Perhaps I am an innocent, but the individuals spending time on this software freely by choice are doing this so that someone other than themselves can make use of their work. > Is not this the case? > Otherwise, you could perfectly well play with the programs at your house for your own use, and subject to only your own ideas of functionality. > If my guess is correct, the individuals willingly volunteering intend for someone to use the program, then does it not logically follow that those others, using their own computers, unique in how they learn...because all humans are different, will share the results of their efforts? > certainly if your work is quality, many will praise your abilities by supporting your work by using it...and as they bring in their individual ways of using the software, they will ask for more. > all of this, at least to me as an outsider seems sort of apparent if you are going to create software, and share it with anyone. > My point is that I do not understand why the volunteer factor carries any weight...the nature of volunteering is freedom of choice...is not that true? If you do not wish your work subjected to public expecting, and requests for improvement, why share it at all? > Again just curious, > > > On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, John G Heim wrote: > >> I am going to guess that you didn't really intend to ask me why a developer can't be all things to all people. That, obviously, would be impossible. But going on what I take to be the intent of your question, I'm going to say that we all need to keep in mind that the developers are volunteers. They have a right to decide for themselves what the best use of their time is. >> >> You say, "Imagine a person who really needed braille being told that the developers cannot be all things to all people" as if that is obviously wrong. But it's not. It would depend on how hard it is to include braille support. >> >> An ethical developer does his best to listen to constructive criticism. He does his best not to exclude anyone. But there is a nearly infinite call on his time. I am guessing you haven't gotten into volunteering as a developer, right? There is no limit to the number of requests you'll get. No matter how hard you work, someone will ask for more. In fact, I'd say the better job you do, the more likely it is that you'll be asked for more. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 09/22/2015 10:39 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote: >>> Why not? >>> The images already exist. >>> The usb stick booting issue is an even greater reason to keep the cd >>> option around. >>> i will give you another example. >>> I am not a braille user, and if one follows the numbers most >>> individuals experiencing sight loss are not using braille either. >>> Less than 8% or so are using braille. >>> However I would guess this flavor of Linux is designed to work with >>> braille, even if the majority of its users in theory might not use it, >>> or given the expense of a display, might not have access to it. >>> Factor in those individuals who use speech, but not braille, and who not >>> experience sight loss, but have a print disability..like dyslexia. >>> Given cd roms are far more common, and the majority of the computing >>> population who might desire accessibility might find one, how are the >>> developers serving the majority by not keeping this option available? >>> Imagine a person who really needed braille being told that the >>> developers cannot be all things to all people? >>> Just a theoretical comparison. >>> You serve more people in theory by keeping the cd images as an option >>> than not if that makes sense. >>> Again Just my thoughts, >>> Karen >>> >>> On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, John G Heim wrote: >>> > Good point. I'd say perhaps that the real problem wouldn't be that >>> > these machines have CD-ROM drives but rather that a lot of older >>> > machines won't boot from a USB stick. My scanner machine is like >>> > that. I have a linux machine with an ISA hardware speech synth and a >>> > SCSI flatbed scanner attached and it won't boot from a thumb drive. I >>> > would hate to give up that machine. >>> > > > On the other hand, I think it is reasonable for the developers of >>> > talking arch to say that they can't be all things to all people. You >>> > will just have to use another flavor of linux. >>> > > > On 09/22/2015 09:07 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote: >>> > > Just an aside on the cd media issue. >>> > > Perhaps you have not considered that Linux is not simply a north >>> > > American effort. additionally even in North America, a person just >>> > > starting out with Linux might get their hardware second hand. for >>> > > example from any of the many freecycle groups around the globe. >>> > > Those machines will still use cds, which is why they are second hand. >>> > > You can still purchase blank cd media as well. >>> > > So do you really want to prevent a person from trying this > > distribution >>> > > if they are starting at the bottom based on the thinking of those who >>> > > have used it for a while? >>> > > I am simply speaking in general here. If I were making this >>> > > decision, I >>> > > would keep a cd simply because there can still be an audience for > > it. >>> > > Just my totally from the sidelines thought. >>> > > Karen >>> > > > > > > On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, Tony Baechler wrote: >>> > > > > > I'm not going to quote Kyle's very long reply here, but I'll > > > address >>> > > > the highlights: >>> > > > > 1. No, I wasn't complaining. I was simply pointing out >>> > > observations. >>> > > > I apologize if it came across as complaining, but I tried to keep >>> > > > things as unbiased as possible. >>> > > > > 2. My live CD is meant as a rescue CD since there currently isn't > > > > a >>> > > > Debian rescue CD, let alone a talking one. One can install it to a >>> > > > hard drive if they wish, but that's not the purpose. As I also >>> > > > mentioned but you failed to address, Debian is eventually going to >>> > > get >>> > > > this fixed and it will talk, so there will be no need for my CD. >>> > > > > 3. I was not complaining about or requesting CD media. Some > > > > people >>> > > > have mentioned this and older machines might not have DVD readers. >>> > > > That's it. Personally, I agree with you that CD media is probably > > > no >>> > > > longer necessary. >>> > > > My live CD is at the max of 700 MB now and is still missing > > > packages >>> > > > I want to add. I'm faced with the choice of freezing development > > > or >>> > > > growing to DVD media. >>> > > > > No, I won't join your IRC channel and no, I won't bother with the >>> > > > sound card issue. It is a Sound Blaster Audigy and the issue has >>> > > been >>> > > > fixed in Debian, so borrow their ALSA configuration. I did read > > > the >>> > > > blog before downloading the CD image several months back. >>> > > Eventually, >>> > > > I'll take another look at Arch, but not for a while. >>> > > > > Finally, not once did I say Arch is bad or what you're doing is >>> > > bad. >>> > > > I have suggested Talking Arch a few times, but people weren't >>> > > > interested. For the few people who only want the console for >>> > > whatever >>> > > > reason, Arch is a good alternative and I didn't say otherwise. I >>> > > > simply pointed out why I personally can't recommend it. I look at >>> > > > several issues, such as what I previously mentioned. There is no >>> > > > public bug tracker specific to Talking Arch, there are only two >>> > > > developers, support email didn't get answered, etc. >>> > > > That is understandable given the volunteer nature of the project, >>> > > but >>> > > > does unfortunately mean I can't recommend it to the masses. I'm >>> > > never >>> > > > close-minded, so when you feel this issues have been addressed, >>> > > please >>> > > > post here or contact me and I'll take another look. >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > > Speakup mailing list >>> > > > Speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> > > > http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup >>> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > Speakup mailing list >>> > > Speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> > > http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup >>> > > -- >>> > John Heim, jheim@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, skype:john.g.heim >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Speakup mailing list >>> > Speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> > http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Speakup mailing list >>> Speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup >> >> -- >> John Heim, jheim@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, skype:john.g.heim >> _______________________________________________ >> Speakup mailing list >> Speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
