Yes MVS/370 and of course now it's been the 3090 series for awhile. I can'treally be specific about details but when some funcitons of some very critical software were re-written from ALC to C, performance detreriorated so drastically that they had to abandon the project until pieces of the compiler were re-written and I still don't think that the C Code ever performed comparably. On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 jwantz at hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote: > Hey Amanda, > I guess you are talking MVS. I never had the dubious pleasure of > working on MVS but the old NWS super computers Cyber (370 clones) ran MVS. > and I knew a lot > of people who used the Cybers all of the time. I understand that their C > compiler was really bad!On Fri, 15 > > Jim > > Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > > > Yes but you left out the CPU and Platform issues. I can tell you that C > > does not run very efficiently on an IBM Mainframe for example yet IBM 370 > > Assembler obviously does and this is because the Assembler Language is > > designed to work with the archetecture. I know of instances where certain > > Function > > Calls in C really bogs down an application. So you are correct to say > > that the actual raw code itself may run comparably to Assembler, but not > > every compiler is designed to produce efficient object code nor code which > > works well with the particular CPU on the respective Platform. > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > On Fri, 15 > > Mar 2002 > > jwantz at hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote: > > > > > Hi Amanda, > > > I agree with you--all but one comment. C at it was originally conceived > > > was not very efficient. However, with modern optimization techniques it > > > is sometimes possible to have a C program that is more efficient then > > > typical hand written assembly code. The problem with this type of > > > optimization is that it takes a very long time to compile even on a fast > > > machine. And no, I have never been able to write a "hello world > > > program" in C under DOS that can compete with my assembly version. > > > hello.c compiled is still more than 4000 bytes (I've gotten less under > > > Linux) and hello.asm produced a hello.com of 36 bytes. So I guess what > > > I'm saying is that I only partially disagree. > > > > > > Take Care, > > > Jim > > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Amanda > > > Lee wrote: > > > > > > > At least you were taught the more difficult and, in the case of Assembler > > > > Language, more efficient. C is not really an efficient language because > > > > it carries with it a lt of overhead. However, as compared with Visual C, > > > > Visual Basic, JAVA, Oracle, Access and others, C is preferable. > > > > > > > > I have over 25 years experience in Software Development and maintenance. > > > > I have coded in a few different languages on various platforms except > > > > Unix/Linux which is where I'm a newbie these days. I guess my fun time > > > > was when I programmed Assembler Language applications on IBM Mainframes > > > > for about 9 years. > > > > The trend is to place too much emphasis upon what I call code in a box. > > > > There's a lot of utility in this but it doesn't work as a onesize fits all > > > > and sooner or later, if the developers involved don't know what really > > > > comprises the inside of that boxful of code, then this is how applications > > > > are literally thrown away and this becomes very costly. > > > > > > > > I believe Victor, that in the longrun, what you have studied will give you > > > > the edge. > > > > > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote: > > > > > > > > > Amanda, you are right. I met a lot of so-called "hard coders" during my > > > > > studies at the university who thought that they could do everything.I > > > > > graduated just a year ago and at my university, Temple University in Philly, > > > > > Visual C++ was only a small fraction of the program. Mostly C, Assembly and > > > > > C++, but on Unix and VMS. We were given a chance to try Visual C on Win NT > > > > > platform, but only for comparison purposes. Now I think Java is overtaking > > > > > slowly. > > > > > Vic > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda at shellworld.net> > > > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:36 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: Computer Science > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get > > > > > > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about. > > > > > > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is > > > > > > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C > > > > > > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for > > > > > > straight C Language. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at > > > > > > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's > > > > > > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been > > > > > > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think > > > > > > they can take on the World in a day! > > > > > > > > > > > > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the > > > > > > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality > > > > > > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they > > > > > > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many > > > > > > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency. > > > > > > > > > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz at hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you > > > > > were > > > > > > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not > > > > > > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science > > > > > > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a > > > > > > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the > > > > > past > > > > > > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I > > > > > > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on > > > > > a > > > > > > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people > > > > > > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use > > > > > > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX > > > > > > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it > > > > > > > through such a tough curriculum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim Wantz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup >
