On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 8:19 AM, Alan Stern <stern@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jan 2009, Arve Hjønnevåg wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Alan Stern <stern@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> > Personally, I think we need to be able to suspend computers even when >> > there are some unconsumed type-ahead characters in the input buffer. >> > But that's merely an implementation detail. >> >> For us, the key that will turn the screen back on could be in this buffer. > > Why do you have this fixation on the screen? Forget about the screen > and consider the system as a whole. > > If the keyboard is enabled for wakeup, then typing a key _will_ wake > the system up from suspend -- provided the key was typed after the > system went to sleep. It's silly to think that a key which was typed > before the computer was suspended should cause it to wake up. Only if you ignore the screen state. If the screen is off and the user presses the power button, I expect it to turn on, not off. >> If we go to sleep while the keypad wakelock is locked, then the keypad >> can no longer wake the system up. Note that this is specific to a >> keypad driver that scans the keypad matrix in software. A keyboard >> that generates an interrupt on every key change does not need its own >> wakelock. > > Are you sure about this? IIRC, you said earlier that your keyboard > generates an interrupt on a key press only when no other keys are > already pressed. Okay -- so imagine the system suspends while a key is > pressed. Pressing another key won't generate an interrupt and hence > won't wake up the system. But releasing all the keys and then pressing > one _will_ generate an interrupt and so will wake up the system. I > don't see any problem with this. A keypad matrix as outputs and inputs. To get an interrupt when any key is pressed, all the output are driven and the interrupt is enabled on the input. When you get this interrupt you turn off the interrupt and stop driving all the outputs. Instead you drive one output, wait for some settle time, and then read the inputs. If you go to sleep in this state, no key will every wake the system up. That said, if the interrupt is edge triggered, it is possible to implement the behaviour you describe. You can pretend no keys are held when the driver's suspend hook is called and start driving all the output. >> Also, consider the case where the user presses the power button to go >> to sleep. Before this sleep request has finished a phone call comes >> in. The driver gets an interrupt, enqueues the message and locks a >> wakelock to make sure user-space gets a chance to process the message. >> If we ignore this wakelock, the phone will either not ring at all, or >> it will ring later when the device wakes up for some other reason. > > For situations like this, the driver can simply refuse to suspend. You > don't need to use a wakelock. How is this better than using a wakelock? Is I understand you correctly, that would mean that the user pressed the power button, and instead of entering suspend as soon as all wakelocks are unlocked, you don't enter suspend at all. Also, when should the driver stop refusing suspend? As soon as it has delivered a message to user-space? After some delay? When do you try to enter suspend again after a driver refused a request? > In fact, if you did use a wakelock the behavior would be very strange. > The user presses the power button, an instant later a call comes in, > the device doesn't go to sleep, the user answers the call, and as soon > as he hangs up (perhaps 10 minutes later) the wakelock is released and > the device immediately goes to sleep! Not what the user would expect. Normally when the user presses a key, the auto off timer in userspace gets reset. This prevents the system from going back to sleep immediately. > >> There is a class of applications where we do want the behaviour you >> describe, but so far all of them also require the screen to stay on. > > Again this fixation with the screen. Forget about the screen! > >> This is handled entirely by our user-space framework which also has >> other options (like keeping the keypad backlight on). >> >> > For example: Suppose some program happens to hold a wakelock, perhaps >> > because of a simple bug, when the user closes the laptop lid and throws >> > the laptop into a backpack. We don't want the computer to remain awake >> > under those circumstances! >> >> If the program hold the wakelock because of a bug we don't want the >> computer on, but if it operating correctly we do. > > _I_ don't. I want my device to suspend itself when I tell it to. > Nothing is more annoying than a machine that doesn't turn itself off > when told to do so. > >> Since we don't have >> a good way to detect if the program locked the wakelock because of a >> bug, we assume it is correct and honor the request. We have debugging >> interfaces to report how often and for how long wakelocks are locked. >> We also do not allow applications to use wakelocks unless they have >> the required permission. > > I admit that in a properly-operating system there won't be any > wakelocks held because of bugs. But there might be wakelocks held for > other reasons, and I don't want _them_ to interfere when I suspend the > machine either. But the purpose of wakelocks is to interfere with suspend. I keep bringing up the screen state, because it is the state that is visible to the user on our device. If the screen is off we enter suspend whenever possible, if the screen is on we do not. >> And, every pm_suspend >> call is the result of unlocking the last wakelock. > > Not true. What if all the wakelocks are already unlocked when the user > writes "mem" to /sys/power/state? In the current implementation, early-suspend handlers are called, then the "main" wakelock is unlocked. >> > So what this example really shows is how wakelocks can be used to >> > prevent auto suspend from kicking back in the moment a keystroke is >> > received, before userspace has even had a chance to decide whether or >> > not to turn auto suspend off. That's how you should describe it -- not >> > as a way of preventing keystrokes from waking the system up. >> >> I was trying to show that user-space decides which keys allow the >> system to wake up. From the kernels point of view, every key causes a >> wakeup, but if user-space decides that the key should not wake the >> system, the system will go back to sleep as soon as possible (when all >> wakelocks are unlocked). > > This paragraph is an excellent example of the muddiness of your > thinking. Userspace does _not_ decide which keys allow the system to > wake up. _All_ keys cause the system to wake up; userspace then > decides which ones should cause the system to go right back into > suspend. > > But you don't need wakelocks to do this. You can get the same effect > without them, just by running a program that writes "mem" (not > "auto-mem"!) to /sys/power/state whenever it sees a keystroke it > doesn't like. So this example does not illustrate the power of > wakelocks. That would not work very well. All threads would be frozen, some drivers suspended, the driver that knows that there are more keys in the queue rejects suspend, and the process is reversed. >> The user-space notion of suspend matches the early-suspend state. > > Then call it "early-suspend"! Don't call it "suspend" or "the > user-space notion of suspend". I was trying to keep the wakelock discussion separate from the early-suspend. Perhaps this was a mistake. >> I >> consider early-suspend another stage, not a different concept. The >> difference between early-suspend and suspend is similar to the >> difference between device suspend and sysdev suspend. What would you >> call the the first stage of suspend that we have added? > > "Early-suspend" is an okay name. However I have the impression that > you want to prolong the early-suspend stage, and sometimes even go back > to full power directly from early-suspend. There's nothing wrong with > that; just make it clear that this is what you're doing. > > In fact, I get the impression that much of what you're talking about > has to do with providing ways to short-circuit a complete suspend and > go directly from early-suspend back to full power. Yes we go from fully awake to early suspend and back to fully awake, and we also go from fully suspended to early-suspend and back to fully suspended. -- Arve Hjønnevåg _______________________________________________ linux-pm mailing list linux-pm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-pm
