On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Dave Chinner <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Sun, Oct 01, 2017 at 10:58:06AM -0700, Dan Williams wrote: >> On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 12:57 AM, Christoph Hellwig <hch@xxxxxx> wrote: >> > While this looks like a really nice cleanup of the code and removes >> > nasty race conditions I'd like to understand the tradeoffs. >> > >> > This now requires every dax device that is used with a file system >> > to have a struct page backing, which means not only means we'd >> > break existing setups, but also a sharp turn from previous policy. >> > >> > Unless I misremember it was you Intel guys that heavily pushed for >> > the page-less version, so I'd like to understand why you've changed >> > your mind. >> >> Sure, here's a quick recap of the story so far of how we got here: >> >> * In support of page-less I/O operations envisioned by Matthew I >> introduced pfn_t as a proposal for converting the block layer and >> other sub-systems to use pfns instead of pages [1]. You helped out on >> that patch set with some work on the DMA api. [2] >> >> * The DMA api conversion effort came to a halt when it came time to >> touch sparc paths and DaveM said [3]: "Generally speaking, I think >> that all actual physical memory the kernel operates on should have a >> struct page backing it." >> >> * ZONE_DEVICE was created to solve the DMA problem and in developing / >> testing that discovered plenty of proof for Dave's assertion (no fork, >> no ptrace, etc). We should have made the switch to require struct page >> at that point, but I was persuaded by the argument that changing the >> dax policy may break existing assumptions, and that there were larger >> issues to go solve at the time. >> >> What changed recently was the discussions around what the dax mount >> option means and the assertion that we can, in general, make some >> policy changes on our way to removing the "experimental" designation >> from filesystem-dax. It is clear that the page-less dax path remains >> experimental with all the way it fails in several kernel paths, and >> there has been no patches for several months to revive the effort. >> Meanwhile the page-less path continues to generate maintenance >> overhead. The recent gymnastics (new ->post_mmap file_operation) to >> make sure ->vm_flags are safely manipulated when dynamically changing >> the dax mode of a file was the final straw for me to pull the trigger >> on this series. >> >> In terms of what breaks by changing this policy it should be noted >> that we automatically create pages for "legacy" pmem devices, and the >> default for "ndctl create-namespace" is to allocate pages. I have yet >> to see a bug report where someone was surprised by fork failing or >> direct-I/O causing a SIGBUS. So, I think the defaults are working, it >> is unlikely that there are environments dependent on page-less >> behavior. > > Does this imply that the hardware vendors won't have > tens of terabytes of pmem in systems in the near to medium term? > That's what we were originally told to expect by 2018-19 timeframe > (i.e. 5 years in), and that's kinda what we've been working towards. > Indeed, supporting systems with a couple of orders of magnitude more > pmem than ram was the big driver for page-less DAX mappings in the > first place. i.e. it was needed to avoid the static RAM overhead of > all the static struct pages for such large amounts of physical > memory. > > If we decide that we must have struct pages for pmem, then we're > essentially throwing away the ability to support the very systems > the hardware vendors were telling us we needed to design the pmem > infrastructure for. If that reality has changed, then I'd suggest > that we need to determine what the long term replacement for > pageless IO on large pmem systems will be before we throw what we > have away. No, we can support large pmem with struct page capacity reserved from pmem itself rather than ram. A 1.5% capacity tax does not appear to be prohibitive. -- To unsubscribe, send a message with 'unsubscribe linux-mm' in the body to majordomo@xxxxxxxxx. For more info on Linux MM, see: http://www.linux-mm.org/ . Don't email: <a href=mailto:"dont@xxxxxxxxx";> email@xxxxxxxxx </a>
