On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 3:04 PM, Anssi Hannula <anssi.hannula@xxxxxx> wrote: > 15.02.2014 14:14, Elias Vanderstuyft kirjoitti: >> On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Anssi Hannula <anssi.hannula@xxxxxx> wrote: >>> 15.02.2014 01:28, Elias Vanderstuyft kirjoitti: >>>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> Hi! >>> >>>> >>>> If you receive my mail, it is either because you: >>>> - are listed under the MAINTAINERS for "/include/uapi/linux/input.h": >>>> http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/MAINTAINERS#n4410 >>>> - are listed as an author of "/Documentation/input/ff.txt" or of >>>> "/Documentation/input/interactive.fig" >>>> >>>> In the process of testing the new driver (ff-memless-next) Michal >>>> (CC-ed) is working on, this allowed me to gain more insight in the >>>> internal workings of Linux FF. That's why I decided to review the >>>> userspace code that currently uses most of Linux FF functionality: >>>> Wine's DInput translation layer (and eventually SDL2.) >>>> Trying to get everything correct, I noticed both >>>> "/include/uapi/linux/input.h" and "/Documentation/input/ff.txt" >>>> provide not enough information for the following things: >>>> >>>> 1) >>>> The real meaning of 'directions', declared in >>>> http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/include/uapi/linux/input.h#L1113 >>>> : >>>> "Direction of the effect" is encoded as follows: ... >>>> But it is not clear whether 'direction of the effect' means either: >>>> - positive direction of the force the user should apply to counteract >>>> the force that the joystick applies; or >>>> - positive direction of the force applied by joystick >>>> From my intuition, I think the latter is (silently?) meant by input.h >>>> If you're interested why this is so important, I attached a document >>>> "DInputVsLinuxDirections.txt" that tries to explain the dilemma if a >>>> translation layer between DInput and Linux input is to be written. >>> >>> From input.h: >>> * Direction of the effect is encoded as follows: >>> * 0 deg -> 0x0000 (down) >>> * 90 deg -> 0x4000 (left) >>> * 180 deg -> 0x8000 (up) >>> * 270 deg -> 0xC000 (right) >>> >>> The directions in parantheses are the direction of applied force. >> >> Alright, thanks! That is invaluable information, maybe it should be >> added to input.h . >> It will avoid a lot of confusion for former DInput devs. >> >>> >>> However, there is actually a 1:1 mapping between DInput polar >>> coordinates and our direction parameter; DInput polar coordinates have 0 >>> deg = up, 90 deg = right, etc, so they are exactly flipped and therefore >>> match our values due to the reverse definition. >>> >>> Looking at your DInputVsLinuxDirections.txt, you seem to have mixed >>> different definitions of Carts: For DInput you use -1 = north, but for >>> Linux +1 = up, while you use -1 = west/left for both. >> >> So I assume you agree that I got the DInput part right? ((0, -1) = north) > > I guess so. > >> Then my mistake lies in the assumption that (0, +1) = up, so I should >> flip the y-axis to correct the Linux part. >> I'll explain how I originally derived the Linux part: >> Michal documented (in "ff-memless-next.txt") the Linux directions in >> the following way: >> " >> Direction of the effect's force translates to Cartesian coordinates system >> as follows: >> Direction = 0: Down >> Direction (0; 16384): 3rd quadrant >> Direction = 16384: Left >> Direction (16385; 32768): 2nd quadrant >> Direction = 32768: Up >> Direction (32769; 49152): 1st quadrant >> Direction = 49152: Right >> Direction (49153; 65535) :4th quadrant >> Direction = 65565: Down >> " > > The above is correct. > >> For a Cartesian coordinates system: >> - The (-1, 0)-axis (=-x) is the intersection of 3rd quadrant and 2nd >> quadrant => Left >> - The (0, +1)-axis (=+y) is the intersection of 2nd quadrant and 1st >> quadrant => Up >> - The (+1, 0)-axis (=+x) is the intersection of 1st quadrant and 4th >> quadrant => Right >> - The (0, -1)-axis (=-y) is the intersection of 4th quadrant and 3rd >> quadrant => Down > > Not sure why you've arbitrarily chosen reverse definition of Y axis > here, I really tried to derive the above in a non-arbitrary manner, here you can verify why I 'chose' the +y axis as the intersection of 2nd quadrant and 1st quadrant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cartesian_coordinates_2D.svg And because you said that the part about directions in "ff-memless-next.txt" is correct, it follows that Up (which lies between the 2nd quadrant and 1st quadrant) corresponds with +y direction. I hope this makes sense. > when all DInput and Linux joysticks, mouses, etc. have -y as "up". Alright, I did not know that, at least not for Linux. Where in the Linux documentation can I find this? > >> Michal's approach seems logical to me, if he made a mistake, it's >> caused by the lack of documentation of input.h : it should mention >> what axes (-x, +x, -y or +y) the words (left, right, down and up) >> correspond with. > > Well, the "left", "right", "down", "up" correspond to directions from > the user perspective. That makes sense. > I don't think that is ambigiuous at all, as I > don't see how you could consider "down" to be away from user? Yes, that's true. But it does not say to which axes (and polarity) they map. > > I'm not against more documentation if it helps, though. > >> So, which interpretation is the right one? > > The one where the directions provided in input.h match physical > direction of the force effect from user perspective on a 2-axis joystick > device. That's a nice explanation! For the doc, also add to what axis each direction corresponds to. > >> (I did not find anything in the Linux documentation that states "there >> is actually a 1:1 mapping between DInput polar coordinates and our >> direction parameter") > > It is not stated explicitely, it just naturally follows. > > 1. Both use a clock-wise direction. > 1. DInput direction definition is reversed, as they use the "counteract" > direction. We can flip to correct. > 2. DInput direction has 0 = up/north, we have 0 = down/south, > i.e. the exact opposite, so we must flip the direction. > > DInput direction = flipped(flipped(Linux direction)) > = Linux direction Alright, now I understand how it works. But: the thing I wrote about the Cartesian coordinates system (the +y axis lies between 2nd quadrant and 1st quadrant) is mathematically correct (see referenced link to wiki), so, to fix the only contradiction left, we will have to change the explanation about directions in "ff-memless-next.txt" to the following text: " Direction of the effect's force translates to Cartesian coordinates system as follows: Direction = 0: Down: +y Direction (0; 16384): 2nd quadrant Direction = 16384: Left: -x Direction (16385; 32768): 3th quadrant Direction = 32768: Up: -y Direction (32769; 49152): 4rd quadrant Direction = 49152: Right: +x Direction (49153; 65535) :1st quadrant Direction = 65565: Down: +y " As you can see, I only changed the quadrants (and added axes for convenience), now they agree to "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cartesian_coordinates_2D.svg";, and to input.h , so everyone should be happy :) Can you confirm the modification is correct? > >>> This causes the >>> 1st and 3rd entries on both of the Mapping tables to be reversed. When >>> that is fixed, the table #2 shows the correct result. >>> >>>> 2) >>>> It is not clear how to create a FF effect with infinite duration >>>> (replay.length): >>>> http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/include/uapi/linux/input.h#L966 >>>> Only the following is written about duration values in general: >>>> "All duration values are expressed in ms. Values above 32767 ms >>>> (0x7fff) should not be used and have unspecified results." >>>> Michal solved this by associating replay.length==0 for infinite, which >>>> makes sense since otherwise the effect would not have been started >>>> anyway. >>> >>> Infinite duration can be achieved with length = 0. >> >> Thanks! This has to be documented. >> >>> >>>> 3) >>>> Many Linux FF effect parameters don't have a clear explanation of the >>>> allowed range, and their corresponding meaning at the extrema. >>>> Here I list the ones that need more explanation, also take a look at >>>> "interactive.fig" in the kernel documentation (but also included as >>>> attachment): >>>> - left_saturation and right_saturation; and >>> >>> left_saturation = maximum force on the negative ("left") side of the >>> center point >>> right_saturation = same for positive side >>> >>> 0x0 => no force, >>> 0xFFFF => maximum force. >> >> OK, thanks for giving the definition. I think these things can be >> understood from "interactive.fig", so there's no need to write >> additional doc about this topic. >> >>> >>>> - deadband >>> >>> The range from center point wherein the effect has no effect >> >> Notice this contradicts with "interactive.fig", this figure defines >> 'deadband' as bound-to-bound, not as center-to-bound (as with DInput). > > There is no difference between those definitions that I can see: > > Axis range > |------------------------------------------------------| > > Definition from interactive.fig, bound-to-bound: > 0x0: > |--------------------------X---------------------------| > 0x8000 (covers half of the end-to-end area): > |------------XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX------------| > 0xFFFF: > |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| Alright, agreed with this part: deadband units or dimensions are the same as the ones of the center offset parameter. > > Center-to-bound definition: > 0x0: > |--------------------------X---------------------------| > 0x8000 (covers half of the center-to-end area): > |------------XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX------------| > 0xFFFF: > |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| Ah, I see, this is where we disagree: now you're not working with the same units or dimensions as the ones of the center offset parameter: you have multiplied them by a factor 2 (that's where my "<< 1" came from, for going from my definition to your definition). This is my proposal of how it could be: Center-to-bound definition (same dimensions as center offset parameter): 0x0: |--------------------------X---------------------------| 0x4000 (covers half of the center-to-end area): |------------XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX------------| 0x8000 (covers whole the center-to-end area): |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| 0xC000: |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| (clamped) 0xFFFF: |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| (clamped) > > >>> , with >>> 0x0 => no dead band >>> 0xFFFF => dead band encompassing the entire axis, effect not active >>> anywhere. >>> >>> Assuming center offset of 0, though. Not sure how the currently >>> supported devices interpret 0xFFFF with non-zero center offset, i.e. if >>> the effect is then still active in the extreme opposite end of the axis. >>> You wrote below that this is indeed the case with DInput, so it is >>> highly likely this is how the devices handle it as well. >> >> Careful, here there's a catch: >> I did not write that in DInput "if deadband == maxValue(deadband) >> with non-zero center offset, then the effect is still active in the >> extreme opposite end of the axis.", >> I wrote that in DInput "if deadband == maxValue(deadband) with >> maximum non-zero center offset, then the effect can only cover half of >> the total region". For reference: maxValue(deadband)=10000 > > I don't see the difference in those statements here. There is, when assuming same dimensions as center offset parameter. Otherwise, you're right. > Note that deadband > is the area where the effect is *not* active. I know, that's why it's called *dead*-band ;) > >> Now I'm proposing to let DInput maxValue(deadband) correspond to linux >> deadband 0x7FFF. >> And still allowing linux deadband to be maximal 0xFFFF => two times >> the maximum range of DInput >> >>> >>> >>>> They all have __u16 types, but "/include/uapi/linux/input.h" does not >>>> say what the maximum values are. >>>> I'm doing a proposal to define and document this (in the Linux kernel) >>>> in the following way, also take a look at my attachment >>>> "interactiveAlteredWithRanges.svg" for the modified version: >>>> Max Range of {right_saturation and left_saturation} = 0x7FFF >>>> Because the maximal value of the saturation bound can be only >>>> half of the total range covered by the max negative to max positive >>>> bounds. >>>> And also because they are related to some form of force, and >>>> all other forms of force magnitude in Linux FF have a maximum value of >>>> 0x7FFF >>> >>> I'm not really convinced that the different range from the other >>> magnitude values is a reason enough to change the definition here. >> >> After reviewing this mail, I totally agree with you, sorry for that. >> >>> >>>> Max Range of {deadband} = 0xFFFF >>>> This is a bit harder to explain: >>>> - First, I would suggest to alter the deadband definition in >>>> figure "interactive.fig": >>>> I would define deadband as going from a deadband-bound to >>>> the center (BTW, This is how MSDN defines it: "In other words, the >>>> condition is not active between lOffset minus lDeadBand and lOffset >>>> plus lDeadBand."), >>>> instead of from a deadband-bound to the other deadband-bound. >>>> => Same spec as in DInput. >>> >>> With 0xFFFF being the maximum deadband with center offset 0, it does not >>> matter if deadband is defined as range from center or total width, >>> maximum is 0xFFFF in both cases. >> >> Indeed, because (assume applying 0xFFFF linux deadband with center offset 0): >> a) If DInput maxValue(deadband)=10000 (=half of the total region) maps >> to 0x7FFF in the Linux case (=my proposal) if linux deadband is >> defined as range from center: >> the driver will clamp {0 + 0xFFFF =approx 0 + 2 * 0x7FFF} to >> 0x7FFF for both left as right side of center => Total region is >> covered by the deadband. >> b) If DInput maxValue(deadband)=10000 (=half of the total region) maps >> to 0x7FFF in the Linux case (=my proposal) if linux deadband is >> defined as total width: >> the driver will set {0 + 0xFFFF / 2 =approx 0 + 0x7FFF} for both >> left as right side of center => Total region is covered by the >> deadband. >> >> If we define linux deadband as range from center, like a), the Linux >> FF API can represent more variations of conditional effects than >> DInput can (and also with greater resolution), and thus becomes >> superior in that aspect. > > Can you provide any example effect parameters on your proposed system > that would not be possible on DInput? Sure: Center-to-bound definition (same dimensions as center offset parameter): Assume center offset is set to the maximum non-zero value +32767 0x0: |-----------------------------------------------------X| 0x4000 (covers a quarter of the end-to-end area): |----------------------------------------XXXXXXXXXXXXXX| 0x8000 (covers half of the end-to-end area): |---------------------------XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| 0xC000 (covers three quarters of the end-to-end area): |-------------XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| 0xFFFF (covers whole the end-to-end area): |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| > > If I understood correctly, what you are saying is an effect like this > (percentages in parantheses are from left extreme of the axis to right > extreme of the axis): > sat_left = 0xFFFF > sat_right = 0xFFFF > coeff_left = 0x4000 > coeff_right = -0x4000 > center = 0x6000 (87.5% point) > deadband (your definition) = 0xA000 > (62.5% of full area from 87.5% point to either direction, i.e. > 25%..150% => (clamping) 25%..100%) > > So that deadband can reach further left than it would be with DInput > definition (which maxes at 0x7FFF of your definition, which would not > reach the 25% mark at the left side). Exactly. > > However, from what I can see, you can achieve the exact same effect with > these parameters (DInput deadband definition): > sat_left = 0xFFFF > sat_right = 0x0000 > coeff_left = 0x4000 > coeff_right = 0x0000 > center = 0x0000 (50% point) > deadband (DInput/ours) = 0x8000 (50% total area, or 50% of > center-to-end, so it reaches 25%..75%) > > On the left side, the effect is exactly the same as before with same > parameters (sat 0xffff, coeff 0x4000, starts at 25% point). > > On the right side the parameters differ, but the end-result is the same, > there is no effect at all: > - In the first example, the right side is fully in deadband area, > causing the effect to have zero effect. > - In my variant with our definition, the right side has zero saturation, > causing the effect to have zero effect. > > > So the present definitions (and DInput definitions) can achieve the same > effects as your proposed definitions, unless I'm missing something, > making the change unneeded. Agreed. But the benefit could be to make the user application less complex, since otherwise, when a special case like the one you mentioned above (with deadband larger than half of the total region), they would also need to change the saturation values. This is not really a problem when the conditional effect is a 'static' one (i.e. center and deadband do not change over time), but it might come in handy for 'dynamic' conditional effects. Although honestly I think that situation is extremely rare, so I'm OK with it if we leave the current definition as is. And now I realize that for devices that require the deadband paramater to be passed explicitly (and use the present definition) like SWFF2, this either would not work, or would require additional (and maybe complex) kernel driver code, which is not what we want. So, I agree to leave its definition unchanged, sorry for the discussion ;) I just have to be sure about this to improve Wine's DInput translation layer. > >> We will have to do the clamping anyway for devices that only accept >> left and right deadband bounds, i.e. Logitech wheels. >> For devices that only accept a single deadband value, like your SWFF2 >> as you mentioned below, the linux deadband would only need to be >> shifted "<< 1" before being send to the device, if they accept u16 and >> work exactly like DInput (range from center, and >> maxValue(deadband)=half of total region). > > I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with "<< 1" here. If the > device can't accept the deadband you want, left-shifting wouldn't fix that. See above about the factor 2. > >>> >>>> - Now, knowing that ff_condition_effect->center is __s16: >>>> The worst case scenario is that "center = -32768" or >>>> "center = +32767" while still wanting to cover the whole region (this >>>> is actually not possible with DInput's specs: in that case, they can >>>> only cover half of the total region): >>>> Then, to keep the scale of "center" and "deadband" the >>>> same, "deadband = 65535" = +32767 - -32768 = 0xFFFF >>> >>> Interesting idea. However, if this is not possible in DInput, this means >>> the devices will likely not support it either, since they are using the >>> DInput effect model (as are we). >> >> This is no problem, use "<< 1" as mentioned above. >> >>> >>> >>> I tried to confirm this with my SWFF2 device, but either it has stopped >>> working properly or, more likely, there is a regression in the kernel... >>> no time to debug now, though, so added to my TODO (HID_REQ_GET_REPORT >>> requests don't seem to go through properly). >>> >>> >>>> I expect we will have to add/document the answers to my questions in >>>> the appropriate file "/include/uapi/linux/input.h" or >>>> "/Documentation/input/ff.txt", so that other userspace developers (and >>>> maybe also kernel devs) don't face the same ambiguities. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you very much for your time, >>> >>> Thanks for looking into this. >>> >>>> Elias >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Anssi Hannula >> >> Elias >> > > > -- > Anssi Hannula Elias -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-input" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
![http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cartesian_coordinates_2D.svg"](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cartesian_coordinates_2D.svg"){kind=link}
