Hi Thomas,
On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:03:39 +0100 (CET), Thomas Gleixner wrote:
> Jean,
>
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009, Jean Delvare wrote:
> > As far as I can see, yield() doesn't have clear semantics attached.
> > It's more of a utility function everyone could use as they see fit. In
> > that respect, I understand your concerns about the coders' expectations
> > and how they could be dismissed by RT. OTOH, I don't think that asking
> > all developers to get rid of yield() because it _may not be_
> > RT-compliant will lead you anywhere.
> >
> > In the 3 occurrences I've looked at, yield() is used as a way to
> > busy-wait in a multitask-friendly way. What other use cases do you
> > expect? I've never seen yield() used as a way to avoid deadlocks, which
> > seems to be what you fear. I guess it could statistically be used that
> > way, but obviously I wouldn't recommend it. Anything else?
> >
> > I would recommend that you audit the various use cases of yield(), and
> > then offer replacements for the cases which are RT-unfriendly, leaving
> > the rest alone and possibly clarifying the intended use of yield() to
> > avoid future problems.
> >
> > In the i2c-algo-bit case, which started this thread, I can't really see
> > what "something more explicit of an implementation" would be. yield()
> > is as optimum as you can get, only delaying the processing if other
> > tasks want to run. A sleep or a delay would delay the processing
> > unconditionally, for an arbitrary amount of time, with no good reason.
> > Removing yield() would increase the latency. This particular feature of
> > i2c-algo-bit isn't necessarily terribly useful, but the code does the
> > right thing, regardless of RT, so I just can't see any reason to change
> > it.
>
> The problem with yield() is not RT specific. Let's just look at the
> yield semantics in mainline:
>
> From kernel/sched_fair.c
>
> unsigned int __read_mostly sysctl_sched_compat_yield;
> ...
> static void yield_task_fair(struct rq *rq)
> {
> if (likely(!sysctl_sched_compat_yield) && curr->policy != SCHED_BATCH) {
> ...
> return;
> }
> }
>
> So even in mainline yield() is doing nothing vs. latencies and is not
> multitask friendly by default. It's just not complaining about it.
I admit I have no clue what you're talking about. What I see is:
/**
* yield - yield the current processor to other threads.
*
* This is a shortcut for kernel-space yielding - it marks the
* thread runnable and calls sys_sched_yield().
*/
void __sched yield(void)
{
set_current_state(TASK_RUNNING);
sys_sched_yield();
}
I have no clue where sys_sched_yield is defined, but I trust the
comment as to what sched() is doing.
> yield itself is a design failure in almost all of its aspects. It's
> the poor mans replacement for proper async notification.
All the use cases in the i2c subsystem have nothing to do with async
notification.
> Q: Why put people yield() into their code ?
> A: Because:
> - it is less nasty than busy waiting for a long time
That's what I've seen, yes.
> - it works better
This is vague.
> - it solves the hang
In which case it is definitely a design failure, granted.
> - it happened to be in the driver they copied
> - ....
>
> At least 90% of the in kernel users of yield() are either a bug or a
> design problem or lack of understanding or all of those.
>
> I can see the idea of using yield() to let other tasks making progress
> in situations where the hardware is a design failure as well,
> e.g. bitbang devices. But if we have to deal with hardware which is
> crap by design yield() is the worst of all answers simply due to its
> horrible semantics.
>
> Let's look at the code in question:
>
> for (i = 0; i <= retries; i++) {
> ret = i2c_outb(i2c_adap, addr);
> if (ret == 1 || i == retries)
> break;
> bit_dbg(3, &i2c_adap->dev, "emitting stop condition\n");
> i2c_stop(adap);
> udelay(adap->udelay);
> yield();
>
> We are in the error path as we failed to communicate with the device
> in the first place. So there a two scenarios:
>
> 1) the device is essential for the boot process:
>
> you have hit a problem anyway
No, you have not. If you exhaust all the retries, then yes you have a
problem. But if the first attempt fails and the second works, then all
is fine. And this can happen. This is the whole point of the retry loop!
>
> 2) this is just some random device probing:
>
> who cares ?
"Who cares" about what? Me, I certainly care about this probing not
taking too much time, to not slow down the boot process for example
(framebuffer drivers do such probes over the DDC bus.)
On top of this, this may not be "random device probing" but a real
access to a known device, which is busy and thus doesn't ack its
address. This is permitted by I2C. A common case is I2C EEPROMs, which
are busy when writing a page, and need some time before they will ack
their address again. But it will happen.
> So in both cases the following change is a noop vs. latency and
> whatever your concerns are:
>
> - udelay(adap->udelay);
> - yield();
> + msleep(1);
This introduces up to 20 ms of delay (at HZ=100) for each retry.
"retries" being 3 by default, this means up to 60 ms total per
transaction. So you can't claim it is equivalent to the original code,
it simply is not, timing-wise.
Then again, this particular piece of code may go away someday, because I
see no reason why i2c-algo-bit would retry automatically in this
particular case, when other I2C adapter drivers do not. It would seem
better to let the caller determine how long to wait and/or how many
times to retry, depending on the target device.
But my initial point still holds: if you are unhappy about yield,
discuss it with Ingo, Peter, Linus or anyone else who cares, and change
it and/or delete it. Asking all driver authors/maintainers to stop
using this function but leaving it defined without a deprecation
warning won't lead you anywhere. Developers will add new calls faster
than you remove them.
--
Jean Delvare
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