Michael Krufky schrieb:
> The only thing that these emails do is cause those people who
> actually are interested in developmental discussions to lose interest
> in reading the mailing lists.
Fully agreeing. Just to add my 2cent: There are not only developers on
this list, actively discussing technical problems. There may be also a
lot of people - like myself - who receive this list for keeping track
development of some devices and / or changes in general.
First of all let me say, that I deeply appreciate anyone's contribution
and I'm not the person - as I'm only the user of your work - who will
ever judge on technical problems etc.
For what I've seen, this kind of email-ping-pong, has nothing to do with
taking up a certain position and in the end is couterproductive.
It's only the utmost childish behavior, I've seen so far in a mailing
list - "Oh Joe has taken away my toy" - "No John did." ... those childs
then go to daddy to complain (or in this case to Linus).
Many emails - especially yours Uwe - go far away from being normal email
discussions. There is certainly a difference between an argument one has
in person, face to face and a discussion via email.
There are people who are more easily offended than others. Maybe it
would just help to
a) THINK, WRITE IT DOWN, LET IT REST for a while (24hrs),
READ it AGAIN, THINK AGAIN and THEN send it out
b) reduce mails to factual things and technical discussion
It is - in my view - also not excusable that there are mails forwarded
(in replies) to the list, that have obviously been sent in 'private'
discussion!
If this were a company's mailing list, certainly there would be a
'superior person' who would take consequences and some people would get
fired - REGARDLESS of who was right and who was wrong.
In the real world (workspace) you simly have to comply to certain common
rules and you HAVE TO work with people. Teasing people or trying to just
making friends on the one side and enemies on the other won't help at
all. One time Uwe, Mauro is your enemy and now he your friend again,
well maybe next week a unpopular decision makes him your enemy again, Uwe?
If you have a point to make, please do this in a rational manner.
If someone in charge of certain things on this list makes a decision,
accept it or give rational and substantiated reasons why you don't
accept it or want it changed. And if you've done so, I believe it will
reached the eyes and minds of the people concerned. But if you just keep
on picking on people and repeating things over and over again nobody
will listen (any more, because it just gets boring and annoying).
Quote: "That cannot be done in a friendly way in all situations, as
humans are humans, and such not perfect at all."
That is certainly true, nobody is perfect. And certain things may need
unfriendly methods - but this does not justify personal insults in
either direction. Maybe an unfriendly solution would be forking out
parts of the project or offering "your" solution on your own server -
whatever. You are free to do so and I believe nobody would delete a hint
on the wiki to such a solution, others could try it and if its accepted
by a certain userbase it would - over time - find its way in.
An old saying goes "The cleverer give in", maybe some just should
remember that. It does not mean, that you should give up. If anyone
thinks he/she has found a problem, present a solution and give people
time to test it and think about. Pressing it forward won't help.
Quote: "Who wants changes first must state what the truth is."
Only half true. It seems to be common habit - and often found in Germany
- to loudly state the (assumed) truth. Good thing, well done. Does it
help? Nooo. Find a solution, rethink this solution and present it in a
way people can understand it and judge it's value. Often enough you will
then find for yourself, that it's not a good solution, ot it does need
more explanation etc.
If you are confident in your solution and/or in the points you have to
make, you should not have to bloodcurdling scream out loudly. Another
German saying goes "Wer schreit hat unrecht" (Who screams is wrong).
I also don't understand why people can/may run mentally amok on the
internet. People may forget sometime in the future, but not the
internet. All this crazy stuff will be there for a long time, possibly
forever. Everone can read it .... and maybe time will come when you seek
a job or just have to work/deal with people, who then type in your name
and it all will fall back on you - and in this case nobody is interested
in who started all this and what you will have to say about it.
At least I am not at all interested in figuring it out for this case
.... and I don't think there are many whou would or actually even could!
Best regards, Tobias
Uwe Bugla wrote:
Am Freitag, 18. Mai 2007 14:11 schrieb e9hack:
Uwe Bugla wrote:
P. S.: Ich bin bescheiden: Eine öffentliche Entschuldigung gegenüber den
betroffenen Leuten, ein eleganter Schritt zurück, tut es voll und ganz.
Es muss nur ernst gemeint sein, und deutlich und unmissverständlich
rüberkommen, weiter nichts.
This is a joke. The guy, which insults everybody, expects that everybody
does apologize to him...
- Hartmut
No, it is not a joke at all, although I know that I am not the friendliest
person if such strange things happen to me and others.
Above that I did not insult everybody, but only especially two persons, maybe
three. So please read carefully the context, then state, not vice versa.
The demand behind is to get rid of people who do nothing but play bad and
compromiseless policy. And if their ellbows have destroyed everything on the
human layer, then they just keep on by threatening the whole susbsystem as a
next step. So, on two layers, the human and the technical one, there will be
nothing but damage and chaos in the end, provoked by those persons.
So if you, Hartmut, and / or others, keep on picking out what they want to
persevere and simply ignore the rest, then I offer to translate the whole
thing into English, just for the people watching this and really wanting to
comprehend the context, which takes work of course.
So please do not take anything personal but just help to avoid superficial
statements like this one.
Who wants changes first must state what the truth is.
That cannot be done in a friendly way in all situations, as humans are humans,
and such not perfect at all.
Uwe
P. S.: I fundamentally changed my mind as far as Manu is concerned.
If I can change my mind, then others can also.
Ellbow mentalities and stubborn minds do seem to be hopeless in this case.
I never intended to ever insult Markus or others.
But there are behaviours in fact as far as the mentioned persons are
concerned, who do not offer you any kind of choice when you ask yourself how
to deal with them. In so far flames seem to be inevitable, unfortunately.
Its also a basic necessity to stop ellbow oriented stubborn people in order to
prevent damage from the whole community. To ensure this, one must go upright
instead of stating superficial remarks ripped out of a voluntary context.
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