On Wed, Feb 22, 2006 at 09:00:15PM -0600, Jan Depner wrote: > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 22:23 -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote: > > A song, novel, poem, picture, all have representations that are not > > integers. In particular, they are objects (though I contend > > that the relevant fact is that they are not integers). > > > > Any song, picture, or novel can be represented as an integer or a > series of numbers in the same way. Check out Michael F. Barnsley and > Iterated Fractal Systems. Here's the thing though (and this will become more clear in my next paragraph) - a representation of a song/picture/novel/etc *does not function* as a song/picture/novel/etc. A computer program is unique in this aspect - it IS its integral representation. > > Since there is no difference between some big integer and a computer > > program, you must defend a copyright against either use. You have a > > computer program and I am doing math. I email you my results, and it > > contains the number of your program. I am using your program without > > a license. After all, *you have no way to tell that I am not*. > > > > This is so specious it doesn't deserve an answer. Are you trying to > say that there is absolutely no creative process involved in > programming? Not at all! I think I wasn't clear with my claim. I am making a careful distinction between an actual computer program (ie, the data that my computer actually executes), and the code that we write when we program. > What you're doing is called reverse syllogism. There are cases when a reverse syllogism is a valid argument. In particular, this is a true statement: > All programs are an integer. That is an integer, therefor it is a > program. Of course, I never said it was necessarily a useful program. The problem I see with making a distinction is an epistimological one. How can you ever tell the difference? [1] I think I might write a piece of software that demonstrates this. I've been thinking about. It's very easy to write a shell script that prints the integer a program makes. But I couldn't find anything that does the reverse, because the vast majority of integers almost certainly don't do anything interesting. But in principle it should be easy. > I definitely accept ownership of software. If I didn't I certainly > wouldn't be writing any open source software since ownership and > copyright of that software is what protects my code from being usurped > by any company around and used without my permission. Is that what you > are advocating, that all software should be public domain so that > companies that don't release source code can just steal it and hide it > from you? Brilliant! No - I too accept copyrighting of software for pragmatic reasons. The reasons you identifed are really good ones. It's also the status quo and it's really hard to get by otherwise. I just find this to be a very difficult arguement to resolve. When someone asked about a distinction I've thought about a lot, I thought I might stick my idea out into the world ::-) > A program is an artistic object or at least it can be. Any program > that is above the complexity of "Hello World" will be programmed > differently by any two programmers. My assumption from reading your > responses is that you are not a programmer. I've been programming > professionally (i.e. I get paid for it) for almost 30 years. I am a programmer, though not professionally at this point. My degree is in mathematics, philosophy, and computer science. I guess you've also figured I'm strong on the philosophy ::-) I don't deny the creativity in software development at all. I'm just busy being creative in other ways right now! [1] You know some logic - are you familiar with the proof of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem? If so, we're at the point after arithmetic has been Godel-numbered: we can no longer distinguish between an integer and an arithmetic statement. -- Ross Vandegrift ross@xxxxxxxxxxxx "The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell." --St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37
