On 9/8/22 00:30, Josh Poimboeuf wrote:
On Sat, Sep 03, 2022 at 08:55:04PM -0700, Jim Mattson wrote:
On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 8:30 PM Jim Mattson <jmattson@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 4:50 PM Josh Poimboeuf <jpoimboe@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
[*] Not 100% true - if STIBP gets disabled by the guest, there's a small
window of opportunity where the SMT sibling can help force a
retbleed attack on a RET between the MSR write and the vmrun. But
that's really unrealistic IMO.
That was my concern. How big does that window have to be before a
cross-thread attack becomes realistic, and how do we ensure that the
window never gets that large?
Per https://developer.amd.com/wp-content/resources/111006-B_AMD64TechnologyIndirectBranchControlExtenstion_WP_7-18Update_FNL.pdf:
When this bit is set in processors that share branch prediction
information, indirect branch predictions from sibling threads cannot
influence the predictions of other sibling threads.
It does not say that upon clearing IA32_SPEC_CTRL.STIBP, that only
*future* branch prediction information will be shared.
If all existing branch prediction information is shared when
IA32_SPEC_CTRL.STIBP is clear, then there is no window.
Yes, that would be an important distinction. If thread B can train the
branch predictor -- specifically targeting a retbleed attack on thread
A's RET insn (in the thunk) -- while STIBP is enabled, and then later
(when STIBP is disabled in the window before starting the guest) the
poisoned branch prediction info (BTB/BHB/whatever) suddenly becomes
visible on thread A, that makes the attack at least somewhat more
feasible.
Note the return thunk gets untrained on kernel entry, so the attack
window is still constrained to the time between kernel entry and STIBP
disable.
It sounds like that behavior may need clarification from AMD. If that's
possible then it might indeed make sense to move the AMD spec_ctrl wrmsr
to asm like we did for Intel.
Sorry, just saw this thread...
Any predictions made while STIBP is enabled are local to the thread
creating them. When STIBP is cleared, newly created predictions would be
shared between thread A and thread B, but old/existing predictions from
Thread B that were created while STIBP was enabled, wouldn't be used in
thread A.
Thanks,
Tom
