From: Martin Uecker > Sent: 07 December 2024 08:40 ... > I find it amazing how much time the Linux kernel community spends > revising code to make it work perfectly. > > Still, I am wondering whether some of this time and effort should not > be targeted at C compilers and language work to make these macro > hacks unnecessary? I'm probably not alone in thinking that sometimes the compiler writers are doing their hardest to make life hard for people writing low level code. > I already found the original motivation for these macros very questionable. > Removing VLAs at the cost having imprecise worst-case bounds strikes > me as fundamentally misguided - at least if security is the motivation. VLA basically cannot be allowed because of the very limited stack space. Even the per-frame limits aren't a real solution - they just catch the places that most likely to cause issues. Very deep call chains and any recursion (that isn't tightly bounded) can cause grief. > So maybe there are other good reasons for this, e.g. bad code > for VLAs or risk of jumping the guard page if the attacker can somehow > influence its size (but for this there is -Wvla-larger-than). But even then, > wouldn't it be a more worthwhile and interesting investment of engineering > resources to improving code generation / warnings at the compiler level? This is kernel code, any access into a stack guard page is basically unrecoverable for the entire system - a kernel lock/mutex could be held. With a list of (calling_fn, called_fn, stack_offset) it is possible calculate an accurate maximum stack usage. Indirect calls would need to use the (IIRC) FINE_IBT hashes to identify the possible functions (and I'm not sure than has an attribute for a 'seed' so that 'int (*)(void *)' functions can be separated into groups. I've not looked at whether objtool could generate the output - but is has to be easier for the compiler to do it. I have done that calculation in the past (parsing a compiler listing file) and basically discovered the system didn't actually have enough memory to allocate 'safe' stacks! The max stack was pretty much always (the equivalent of) printf() inside an error path that never happens. It might be interesting to see how bad linux is (after sorting out how to handle recursive calls - hopefully there won't be too many unexpected ones. > Also the fortification of strlen and co seems something which could be > much better solved with annotations and proper compiler support. That might be nice, but kernel have to be buildable with relatively old compilers. Some things might need language/ABI changes to better handle ptr+size. The ability to return such a pair in registers would probably be useful (without doing horrid games with a union and __int128). David - Registered Address Lakeside, Bramley Road, Mount Farm, Milton Keynes, MK1 1PT, UK Registration No: 1397386 (Wales)
