Quoting Tvrtko Ursulin (2018-08-08 13:13:08)
>
> On 26/06/2018 12:48, Chris Wilson wrote:
> > It's just that this about the third time this has been raised in the
> > last couple of weeks with the other two requests being from a generic
> > tooling pov (Eric Anholt for gnome-shell tweaking, and some one
> > else looking for a gpuvis-like tool). So it seems like there is
> > interest, even if I doubt that it'll help answer any questions beyond
> > what you can just extract from looking at userspace. (Imo, the only
> > people these tracepoints are useful for are people writing patches for
> > the driver. For everyone else, you can just observe system behaviour and
> > optimise your code for your workload. Otoh, can one trust a black
> > box, argh.)
>
> Some of the things might be obtainable purely from userspace via heavily
> instrumented builds, which may be in the realm of possible for during
> development, but I don't think it is feasible in general both because it
> is too involved, and because it would preclude existence of tools which
> can trace any random client.
>
> > To have a second set of nearly equivalent tracepoints, we need to have
> > strong justification why we couldn't just use or extend the generic set.
>
> I was hoping that the conversation so far established that nearly
> equivalent is not close enough for intended use cases. And that is not
> possible to make the generic ones so.
(I just don't see the point of those use cases. I trace the kernel to
fix the kernel...)
> > Plus I feel a lot more comfortable exporting a set of generic
> > tracepoints, than those where we may be leaking more knowledge of the HW
> > than we can reasonably expect to support for the indefinite future.
>
> I think it is accepted we cannot guarantee low level tracepoints will be
> supportable in the future world of GuC scheduling. (How and what we will
> do there is yet unresolved.) But at least we get much better usability
> for platforms up to there, and for very small effort. The idea is not to
> mark these as ABI but just improve user experience.
>
> You are I suppose worried that if these tracepoints disappeared due
> being un-implementable someone will complain?
They already do...
> I just want that anyone can run trace.pl and see how virtual engine
> behaves, without having to recompile the kernel. And VTune people want
> the same for their enterprise-level customers. Both tools are ready to
> adapt should it be required. Its I repeat just usability and user
> experience out of the box.
The out-of-the-box user experience should not require the use of such
tools in the first place! If they are trying to work around the kernel
(and that's the only use of this information I see) we have bugs a
plenty.
[snip because I repeated myself]
I think my issues boil down to:
1 - people will complain no matter what (when it changes, when it is no
longer available)
2 - people will use it to workaround not fix; the information about kernel
behaviour should only be used with a view to fixing that behaviour
As such, I am quite happy to have it limited to driver developers that
want to fix issues at source (OpenCL, I'm looking at you). There's tons
of other user observable information out there for tuning userspace,
why does the latency of runnable->queued matter if you will not do anything
about it? Other things like dependency graphs, if you can't keep control
of your own fences, you've already lost.
I don't see any value in giving the information away, just the cost. If
you can convince Joonas of its merit, and if we can define just exactly
what ABI it constitutes, then I'd be happy to be the one who says "I
told you so" in the future for a change.
-Chris
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