Re: Agenda Denial Was: tone policing

Keith Moore <moore@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> · Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:56:32 -0400



    On 9/10/19 5:23 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

    
            You seem to be assigning a bad motive to anyone who wants to
            improve

            the atmosphere for discussion within the IETF by stating
            "tone policing"

            is only used as a way to do "agenda denial".

          
            No, I am
              limiting the use of the term 'tone policing' to only apply
              it to circumstances where the intention is malicious.
            

            A request
              for civility is fine as long as it is not then weaponized
              to say, 'and since this issue was raised improperly, it
              can never be raised' or if it is clearly being raised in
              bad faith. For example when a political candidate who
              attacks their opponents by attaching epithets 'lying',
              'sleepy', etc. then bemoans the uncivil treatment they
              receive.
            

            The term
              'tone policing' as I understand it is exclusively used to
              imply a bad faith complaint of incivility or
              unprofessional behavior. 

            
    I'm okay with requests for civility.   Civility is always
      appropriate.   If someone is clearly being uncivil, sure, say
      something to them.

    
    I am much less comfortable with "requests", from some appointed
      people or persons, that someone phrase their words differently
      than they did, for arbitrary reasons.   I believe that such
      pushback can cause harm (and has caused harm in IETF) even when
      done in good faith.  

    
    (For that matter, I presume that in most instances of "tone
      policing", whatever definition you choose, the policing person
      often believes they are acting in good faith.   So I'm not sure
      that "good faith" is a useful criterion for determining when such
      pushback is ok - it's as subjective as anything else.)
    There are many factors that deter people from participation in
      IETF.   To me it makes sense to look at all of those factors and
      try to measure them, and try to develop a strategy that encourages
      wider participation from the entire spectrum of technically
      qualified individuals, and to educate less qualified
      individuals.   What doesn't make sense to me is to presume that
      such deterrence is due to a single factor, or to only address a
      single factor, or to presume that there are groups of technically
      qualified individuals who should be deterred.

    
    Keith