Re: [ipwave] Intdir early review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-34

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I agree with you Sri.
You raised these issues much earlier, even prior to WG formation.

WE discussed back and forth about this since long. WE found a way forward each time: separate ND into another work.

Alex

Le 12/04/2019 à 16:59, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) a écrit :
If you go back and check 2017 archives, I did raise many of these issues.  But, we clearly decided to limit the scope excluding address configuration, DAD, ND aspect, link models. When there is such a scope statement, it should clearly move these comments to the draft that defines how ND works for 802.11-OCB links.


https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/its/9NvUfRigGd4Klu0Q2Ee-63ziATw

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/its/VcrwNSvNJVIZNcRLNjDY0iSw3CA

Sri




From: its <its-bounces@xxxxxxxx <mailto:its-bounces@xxxxxxxx>> on behalf of Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:sgundave@xxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Friday, April 12, 2019 at 7:38 AM
To: Nabil Benamar <benamar73@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:benamar73@xxxxxxxxx>>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:pthubert@xxxxxxxxx>> Cc: "ietf@xxxxxxxx <mailto:ietf@xxxxxxxx>" <ietf@xxxxxxxx <mailto:ietf@xxxxxxxx>>, "its@xxxxxxxx <mailto:its@xxxxxxxx>" <its@xxxxxxxx <mailto:its@xxxxxxxx>>, "int-dir@xxxxxxxx <mailto:int-dir@xxxxxxxx>" <int-dir@xxxxxxxx <mailto:int-dir@xxxxxxxx>>, Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:n.benamar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>, "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@xxxxxxxx <mailto:draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@xxxxxxxx>" <draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@xxxxxxxx <mailto:draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@xxxxxxxx>>, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@xxxxxxxxx>> Subject: Re: [ipwave] Intdir early review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-34

I am not following these discussions.  From my point of view, many of the discussions are totally out of scope for this document.

Some one needs to moderate these discussions.

Sri



From: its <its-bounces@xxxxxxxx <mailto:its-bounces@xxxxxxxx>> on behalf of Nabil Benamar <benamar73@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:benamar73@xxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Friday, April 12, 2019 at 7:34 AM
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:pthubert@xxxxxxxxx>> Cc: "ietf@xxxxxxxx <mailto:ietf@xxxxxxxx>" <ietf@xxxxxxxx <mailto:ietf@xxxxxxxx>>, "its@xxxxxxxx <mailto:its@xxxxxxxx>" <its@xxxxxxxx <mailto:its@xxxxxxxx>>, "int-dir@xxxxxxxx <mailto:int-dir@xxxxxxxx>" <int-dir@xxxxxxxx <mailto:int-dir@xxxxxxxx>>, Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:n.benamar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>, "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@xxxxxxxx <mailto:draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@xxxxxxxx>" <draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@xxxxxxxx <mailto:draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@xxxxxxxx>>, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@xxxxxxxxx>> Subject: Re: [ipwave] Intdir early review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-34

Hello Pascal,

I seconded Akex and would like to suggest you to add the missing text in the draft.

Best regards
Nabil


On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 14:01 Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:pthubert@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

    Hello Nabil.____

    __ __

    You will get a number of IESG reviews as part of the submission
    process, one per area. This is just a beginning…____

    __ __

    Cheers,____

    __ __

    Pascal____

    __ __

    *From:* NABIL BENAMAR <n.benamar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:n.benamar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
    *Sent:* lundi 8 avril 2019 17:53
    *To:* Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@xxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@xxxxxxxxx>>
    *Cc:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@xxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:pthubert@xxxxxxxxx>>; int-dir@xxxxxxxx
    <mailto:int-dir@xxxxxxxx>; ietf@xxxxxxxx <mailto:ietf@xxxxxxxx>;
    its@xxxxxxxx <mailto:its@xxxxxxxx>;
    draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@xxxxxxxx
    <mailto:draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@xxxxxxxxx>
    *Subject:* Re: Intdir early review of
    draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-34____

    __ __

    Yes definitely Alex....____

    __ __

    There have been many reviews until now. This should be a late or
    final review.____

    __ __

    On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 10:01 Alexandre Petrescu
    <alexandre.petrescu@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@xxxxxxxxx>>
    wrote:____

        As a note: please improve the title of this.____

        It is not an early review.____

        It is a late review.____

        There have been several reviews of this document until here, and
        two shepherd reviews.____

        Alex____

        Le 04/03/2019 à 12:24, Pascal Thubert a écrit :____

            Reviewer: Pascal Thubert____

            Review result: Not Ready____

            __  __

            Reviewer: Pascal Thubert____

            Review result: Not ready. Need to clarify IEEE relationship, IOW which SDO____

            defines the use of L2 fields, what this spec enforces vs. recognizes as being____

            used that way based on IEEE work. The use of IPv6 ND requires a lot more____

            thoughts, recommendation to use 6LoWPAN ND. The definition of a subnet is____

            unclear. It seems that RSUs would have prefixes but that is not discussed.____

            __  __

            I am an assigned INT and IOT directorates reviewer for <____

            draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-34 >. These comments were written____

            primarily for the benefit of the Internet Area Directors. Document editors and____

            shepherd(s) should treat these comments just like they would treat comments____

            from any other IETF contributors and resolve them along with any other Last____

            Call comments that have been received. For more details on the INT Directorate,____

            seehttps://datatracker.ietf.org/group/intdir/about/____

            __  __

            Majors issues____

            -----------------____

            __  __

            “____

            __  __

            o  Exceptions due to different operation of IPv6 network layer on____

                   802.11 than on Ethernet.____

            __  __

            “____

            Is this doc scoped to OCB or 802.11 in general? Is there an expectation that an____

            implementer of IPv6 over Wi-Fi refers to this doc? Spelled as above, it seems____

            that you are defining the LLC. Figure 1 shows the proposed adaptation layer as____

            IEEE LLC work. Who defines those fields, IETF or IEEE, or mixed? Who defines____

            their use? If this spec defines a new LLC header (vs. how to use an IEEE field)____

              then it should be very clear, and the newly defined fields should be isolated____

            from IEEE fields.____

            __  __

            "____

                The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB MUST be immediately____

                preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header.____

            __  __

            "____

            Is there anything new or specific to OCB vs. classical 802.11 operations?____

            If/when this is echoing the IEEE specs then this text should not use uppercase____

            but say something like: 'Per IEEE Std 802.11, the IPv6 packet transmitted on____

            802.11-OCB is immediately  preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and____

            an 802.11 header ...'____

            __  __

            different things? Why define both?____

            __  __

            "   An 'adaptation' layer is inserted between a MAC layer and the____

                Networking layer.  This is used to transform some parameters between____

                their form expected by the IP stack and the form provided by the MAC____

                layer.____

            "____

            Is this different from what an AP does when it bridges Wi-Fi to Ethernet? Is____

            this IETF business?____

            __  __

            "____

                The Receiver and Transmitter Address fields in the 802.11 header MUST____

                contain the same values as the Destination and the Source Address____

                fields in the Ethernet II Header, respectively.____

            "____

            Same,  this is IEEE game isn't it?____

            __  __

            "____

            __  __

            Solutions for these problems SHOULD____

                consider the OCB mode of operation.____

            "____

            This is not specific enough to be actionable. I suggest to remove this sentence.____

            It would be of interest for the people defining those solutions to understand____

            the specific needs of OCB vs. Wi Fi, but I do not see text about that.____

            __  __

            "____

            __  __

            The method of forming IIDs____

                described in section 4 of [RFC2464] MAY be used during transition____

                time.____

            "____

            Contradicts section 4.3 that says____

            "____

            Among these types of____

                addresses only the IPv6 link-local addresses MAY be formed using an____

                EUI-64 identifier.____

            "____

            __  __

            "____

            __  __

            This____

                subnet MUST use at least the link-local prefix fe80::/10 and the____

                interfaces MUST be assigned IPv6 addresses of type link-local.____

            "____

            If this is conforming IPv6 then the MUST is not needed.____

            __  __

            "____

                A subnet is formed by the external 802.11-OCB interfaces of vehicles____

                that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces).____

            "____

            Is the definition transitive? Do we really get a subnet?____

              A is close to  B who is close to C .... to Z, makes Paris one subnet! Are you____

              talking about a link, rather?____

            __  __

            "____

                The Neighbor Discovery protocol (ND) [RFC4861] MUST be used over____

                802.11-OCB links.____

            "____

            __  __

            IPv6 ND is not suited for a non-broadcast network. How does DAD work?____

            Maybe you could consider RFC 6775 / RFC 8505 instead.____

            __  __

            "____

            In the moment the MAC address is changed____

                on an 802.11-OCB interface all the Interface Identifiers of IPv6____

                addresses assigned to that interface MUST change.____

            "____

            Why is that? This is unexpected, and hopefully wrong.____

            __  __

            Minor issues____

            ---------------____

            __  __

            "   OCB (outside the context of a basic service set - BSS): A mode of____

                operation in which a STA is not a member of a BSS and does not____

                utilize IEEE Std 802.11 authentication, association, or data____

                confidentiality.____

            __  __

                802.11-OCB: mode specified in IEEE Std 802.11-2016 when the MIB____

                attribute dot11OCBActivited is true.  Note: compliance with standards____

                and regulations set in different countries when using the 5.9GHz____

                frequency band is required.____

            "____

            __  __

            Are these 2 different things?____

            __  __

            "____

            Among these types of____

              addresses only the IPv6 link-local addresses MAY be formed using an____

               EUI-64 identifier.____

            "____

            This text should not be in a LL specific section since it deals with the other____

            addresses. Maybe rename the section to "addressing" or something?____

            __  __

            "____

                For privacy, the link-local address MAY be formed according to the____

                mechanisms described in Section 5.2.____

            "____

            The MAY is not helpful. I suggest to remove the sentence that does not bring____

            value vs. 5.2____

            __  __

            Could you make sections 4.3 and 4.5 contiguous?____

            __  __

            "____

            If semantically____

                opaque Interface Identifiers are needed, a potential method for____

                generating semantically opaque Interface Identifiers with IPv6____

                Stateless Address Autoconfiguration is given in [RFC7217]...____

            __  __

                Semantically opaque Interface Identifiers, instead of meaningful____

                Interface Identifiers derived from a valid and meaningful MAC address____

                ([RFC2464], section 4), MAY be needed in order to avoid certain____

                privacy risks.____

            __  __

            ...____

            __  __

                In order to avoid these risks, opaque Interface Identifiers MAY be____

                formed according to rules described in [RFC7217].  These opaque____

                Interface Identifiers are formed starting from identifiers different____

                than the MAC addresses, and from cryptographically strong material.____

                Thus, privacy sensitive information is absent from Interface IDs, and____

                it is impossible to calculate the initial value from which the____

                Interface ID was calculated.____

            __  __

            "____

            Duplicate and mis ordered text, isn't it?____

            __  __

            " For this reason, an attacker may realize many____

                attacks on privacy.____

            "____

            Do we attack privacy? Maybe say that privacy is a real concern, and maybe move____

            that text to security section?____

            __  __

            "____

                The way Interface Identifiers are used MAY involve risks to privacy,____

                as described in Section 5.1.____

            "____

            Also duplicate____

            __  __

            Nits____

            ------____

            __  __

            "____

                IP packets MUST be transmitted over 802.11-OCB media as QoS Data____

                frames whose format is specified in IEEE Std 802.11.____

            "____

            Please add link to the reference____

            __  __

            " the 802.11 hidden node"____

            Do not use 802.11 standalone (multiple occurrences).____

            => "the IEEE Std. 802.11 [ ref ] hidden node", or just "the hidden terminal".____

            __  __

            BCP 14 text:____

            __  __

            Suggest to use this text:____

            “____

                The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",____

                "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "NOT RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and____

                "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in____

                https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp14  https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp14____

                [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2119][RFC8174] when, and only when, they____

                appear in all capitals, as shown here.____

            __  __

            “____

            __  __

            All the best____

            __  __

            Pascal____

            __  __

            __  __

            __  __

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