Hi Sam,
El 30/3/19 3:44, "ietf en nombre de Sam Hartman" <ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx en nombre de hartmans-ietf@xxxxxxx> escribió:
>>>>> "JORDI" == JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
JORDI> I don’t think this is something to be handled in private
JORDI> messages. Those cases should be publicly exposed and point
JORDI> to specific names, so the rest of us take our own personal
JORDI> decisions on those folks in addition to IETF actions.
Please follow your own antiharassment procedure. As Dave Crocker
pointed out during the development of the BCP in question, there are
some (non-addressed) problems with it. Still, it's far better than what
you propose above.
I'm not saying that, it was responding to an specific email, not as a general procedure.
Victims of harassment often don't want their experience dragged through
the consensus judgment process of the IETF. Theey don't want the
details of a difficult and painful experience exposed and debated on a
public list. Theyalmost certainly don't want to face the inevitable
The point is that if someone else was writing the email, it was clear to me that some people, not the victims necessarily, have that information, so they can expose it publicly in addition to the IETF procedure.
victim blaiming and debating of whether they or the harasser are more
reasonable. They don't want to watch the debate about whether the
harasser is so valuable to the organization that their behavior *has to
be* accepted.
And speaking from personal experience as a victim, some of the time you
don't even want to see people dragged through the mud. Some of the time
people do improve and understand why what they are doing is
problematic. Or some of the time they are your friends and you just
don't want to be the one who causes that mess to land on them. And yes,
you have to evaluate your silence against the potential that someone
else will get hurt, and yes that tradeoff sucks. But people make it
every day.
I know, because when I was a kid, needed to take that decision as well in many occasions, and my take was I prefer to avoid "future issues to others even if this means more problems for me now".
And denying them that option is both inconsistent with your policies and
with approaching the realities of harassment/bullying with compassion.
Just to make it clear. I didn't denied anyone any option.
I'd say that the last time I was tracking the IETF closely, it was
behind the curve in approaching some of these issues. Doubtless things
are better now, but it seems inevitable that to some degree or another
the sorts of problems I raise will absolutely come up if details become
public.
Absolutely if victims want to come forward and tell their story, they
should be able to do so.
Demanding or expecting that lacks compassion.
I'm sorry if I was interpreted that way, but I didn't mean they MUST do it. One think that has a lot of difficulties for non-native English speakers is that the way we think and make our sentences is not always the perfect one for the native ones. I will love if the participants have this consideration at all the time.
I may sound a bit worked up here. Debian has been facing similar issues
where some names did come forward (at least in private) earlier this
year. Everything you can imagine happened.
Or for another data point take a look at
https://crystalhuff.com/2018/10/25/why-im-not-at-arisia-anymore-my-rapist-is-president-again/
a frank and well written discussion of what happened to one victim who
came forward and discussed her rape at the hands of one of the officers
of a local science fiction convention.
Thanks for your consideration,-
--Sam
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