christian, a stunning review as usual. but i have two questions which you kind of finessed. they are simple binary, i.e. yes/no, questions that the end user, to whom the IETF is ultimately responsible, really cares about. if the manufacturer's servers go down, either permanently or even for a day, does the device i have purchased still work? i.e. is it fail soft? [0] if the manufacturer's servers go down, either permanently or even for a day, can i give/sell the device i have purchased to a third, well fourth i guess, party, at my whim and seamlessly unencumbered? fwiw, i asked these same questions at the 2005 paris side meeting at l'ecole whatever hosted by mark. the blank stares i received alarmed me. the ietf is ultimately responsible to the users. thanks. randy -- 0 - yes, i understand i may not be able to access it through the manufacturer's cloud. so you want to help look at tcpdumps of the manufacturer installed thermostat that does not talk to that mfgr on net that i am debugging this weekend? :(