I think already mention that, but just in case. I'm working in updating https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-palet-ietf-meeting-network-requirements-01.txt Is mainly about network requirements, but I used "and other" in the title, because I understood that we may need to consider other technical issues in the meetings. I'm trying to figure out the best path for this document ... I hope the NOC/secretariat can review it at some point, and probably they can also provide some hints about audio details ... Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: ietf <ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx> en nombre de Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Fecha: jueves, 22 de febrero de 2018, 12:33 Para: "jordi.palet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <jordi.palet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "<ietf@xxxxxxxx>" <ietf@xxxxxxxx>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@xxxxxxx> CC: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Asunto: RE: On audio quality requirements for IETF meetings Hi This one sort of lost traction. The issue I raised is that the audio quality at IETF meetings varies quite a lot, ranging from quite decent all the way down to pretty awful. And it also varies quite a lot between small and large rooms at the same IETF meeting. Is there an interest to write up a set of recommendations around audio setup? The follow-up question is, would these recommendations be considered ? Carsten has a few good suggestions (below). I raised the quite obvious topic that small line array speaker controls the sound dispersion better than the commonly used point sources. As I see it the recommendations range from the simple and cheap (e.g. use HP filters) to more expensive gear. The loudspeaker recommendations that I think of, as well as microphone recommendations are not necessarily more expensive to implement than the current gear that is rented for each IETF. It is more a matter of going from "pick any gear" to "pick among gear that falls into this category" Regards /Ingemar > -----Original Message----- > From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@xxxxxxx] > Sent: den 18 november 2017 10:38 > To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > Cc: <ietf@xxxxxxxx> <ietf@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: On audio quality requirements for IETF meetings > > > > I believe that improved acoustics would non only benefit people with bad > hearing, it would also reduce fatigue for people with good hearing > > +100. I’ve been using English in a professional context for more than 35 years > now, but English via bad audio really exhausts me. > > I don’t think we should meddle with the actual A/V engineering (although > the DECT microphones that Telefonica had for the STRINT workshop in 2014 > were amazing). But we can show that we care about audio by asking for > some simple specifications (RT60 was suggested, maybe frequency response > if installed ceiling speakers are to be used — a high pass might help with > some rooms). > > ISTR that the microphones I looked at in Singapore said they were SM58s, so > unless they were cheap fakes, the problems with them were mostly lack of > training (you need to be very close to those, and unless you are an > accomplished singer, this means you need to hold them as opposed to using > them on a stand). There were some microphones though that needed to be > tapped or shaken now and then, pointing to badly maintained battery > contacts. And battery discipline apparently was lacking as well — batteries > need to be replaced in a regular process and not after they finally fail. > > There were some serious speaker placement problems in some rooms, with > no direct sound at all in significant parts of the room (including the presenter > and chair areas themselves). Maybe we can complement the presenter TV > with a monitor speaker (which would also help the presenter with knowing > when they are close enough to the microphone), but the speaker placement > for the rest of the room simply needs to be checked in place and corrections > made where needed. > > If we really want to help people who can benefit from that, there could be a > monitor frequency per room that can be picked up by a receiver (I’ve used > those with specific students in large-room lectures). Those of course require > additional planning, as they are regional and licensed; instead of doing it per > room there could also be a set per person needing it, with a place in the > room to plug the transmitter in. (I have used meetecho as a cheap version of > that when I happened to sit down in a bad area of the room, but the delay is > generally too high compared to an analog solution.) > > At least the leakage from adjacent rooms (another spec we could ask for) > was limited this time. > > Audio problems excepted, this was definitely one of the better venues we > had. > > Grüße, Carsten > -----Original Message----- > From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ [mailto:jordi.palet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: den 17 november 2017 03:43 > To: <ietf@xxxxxxxx> <ietf@xxxxxxxx> > Cc: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: On audio quality requirements for IETF meetings > > Hi all, > > I’ve got the below question from Ingemar (confirmed with him that is ok to > respond in the list). > > This document: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-ietf-meeting-network- > requirements/ > > is mainly about the network, but also “other” technical requirements, so I > think it will be fine to include audio specs. > > I’m sure we have some audio experts in the list that can figure out what will > be the correct wording for our criteria on this? > > I want to take the opportunity to ask the list for: > 1) Please review the document, specially the NOC team and secretariat, but > in general in case there are other technical requirements that aren’t being > considered. > 2) IETF chair/IESG, as the mtgvenue WG believes there is not good expertise > there to evaluate this document, what is the path forward? > > I don’t want to have the same experience as I had in 2006 with this document > and the original draft-palet-ietf-meeting-venue-selection-criteria, which > after hard work were silently ignored and we started the work from scratch > in mtgvenue without even mentioning them. > > This is another topic, but I want to mention it as it is a perfect example: I think > this is a global IETF problem and we should somehow correct it. People do > some work … is not considered by IETF, fine, but then after some time, > somebody else take on that work and the original authors aren’t referenced. > I think is a matter of basic politeness and acknowledgment. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > Responder a: <ingemar.s.johansson@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > Fecha: viernes, 17 de noviembre de 2017, 10:17 > Para: "jordi.palet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <jordi.palet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Asunto: On audio quality requirements for IETF meetings > > Hi > Tried to find the RFC that describes the requirements for the IETF meeting > rooms, still not lucky in my search. I would be interested to see if there are > any stated requirements on the audio quality. > > I personally suffer from degraded hearing since childhood and quite often > have problems to hear what people say. The reasons are : > + High noise from AC and ventilation > + Low audio level (sometimes close to 0dB S/N) > + Long reverberation times (boomy acoustics) > > Some of these issues are relatively easy to fix (requirements on audio > levels), others can be involve more work. I don’t have all the answers right > now but for instance. > + Line array loudspeakers are generally better than point sources and built > in ceiling speakers, as the line arrays control the audio dispersion better, a > great benefit in venues with boomy acoustics. > > + Requirements on e.g RT60 and noise levels. > + Audio monitors should face the WG/AD/* chairs and the presenter > > I believe that improved acoustics would non only benefit people with bad > hearing, it would also reduce fatigue for people with good hearing > > Is there any document that can be updated with recommendations, unless > there are any requirements/recommendations available already ? > > > Regards > Ingemar > > ================================== > Ingemar Johansson M.Sc. > > Master Researcher > > Ericsson Research > Network Protocols & E2E Performance > Labratoriegränd 11 > 971 28, Luleå, Sweden > Phone +46-1071 43042 > SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289 > ingemar.s.johansson@xxxxxxxxxxxx > www.ericsson.com > > The world is full of magical things patiently > > waiting for our wits to grow sharper > Bertrand Russell > ================================== > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a > criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, > even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to > inform about this communication and delete it. > > ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. 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