Folks, It seems to me that three things are emerging on this thread. (1) The original proposal and problem to be solved, at least as most of us understood it, was to allow a sender to send some sort of notification that would cause all copies of a message to be automagically destroyed. We appear to have unanimity that problem is unsolvable, at least in the general case and/or in the absence of universal trust. (2) We have considerable experience (in both email and netnew) with putting out messages with expiry dates as information for the recipient (whether expected to be acted on automatically or not). While there are important exceptions, they have never been as useful as was apparently assumed when they were adopted... to the point that the IANA registry entries for the relevant email header fields identify them as obsolete. We have less experience with the originator of an already-sent message as expired or obsolete, but no evidence has been offered so far that such a facility would be appreciably more useful than the "Expires:" header field. (3) We have now reached the stage in which people seem to be discussing alternate problems that can be solved. That isn't very hard, but those alternate problems are not the original one and little or no case is being made that the new problems are worth solving or that solutions would be useful, even if they are feasible. It seems to me that, if people believe there is a problem worth solving and if they think they have a feasible solution, we need to see an I-D that explains both, rather than continuing to circle around an ever-expanding collection of possible issues on the IETF list in the absence of such a draft. john